• TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
    Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
    Join freeLog in
    Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.

Genz Benz Shuttle 9.0 discussion thread

Status
Not open for further replies.
On the "amp sound" tangent.... well... I will say that power amps do sound different IME.... probably due to a number of factors like dynamic response, limiter design, IMD levels, high-pass filters, etc.... Even small changes on a component level can be audible.
 
Sure, it makes the amp seem subjectively louder "Hey! It's bone crushing, and it's only at 9:00!", but it doesn't actually impact absolute volume potential whatsoever.

Once again, your are cluttering the discussion with logic, LOL.
I have done the ultimate mod on all my heads and adjusted the knob graphics....now they go to ELEVEN!
 
Once again, your are cluttering the discussion with logic, LOL.

That's what years of philosophy will do to you. Sad, I know.... :bawl:

I have done the ultimate mod on all my heads and adjusted the knob graphics....now they go to ELEVEN!

Ah.... Mine don't need to go to 11 because I mod them with special volume pots so that you only have to turn them one notch to get full volume. :p
 
Doesn't GB's testing methodology differ from other manufacturers when defining the output wattage of an amp? Static load testing vs. reactive load, or somesuch? And can/does this account for people's perception that the GB amps are "softer per watt" than other amps?

Edit: I'm thinking of the dust-up that followed Bass Gear Magazine's bench test of the GBE1200, but I didn't really follow that thread at the time, and it's Mega, so it'll take awhile to pick through it...
 
My limited experience with my new 9.0, is with everything set
flat, my LMII sound jumps out more at a lower volume. As soon
as I bump the low mid eq on the 9.0 a little, the sound jumps
out as much as the LMII at the same volume. Just because
the knobs are set flat doesn't mean the preamp is flat.
 
Why even have numbers on the knobs at all, if 10 on one is 5 on another?

If one is looking for an accurate dB indicator then perhaps the numbers are not that helpful. Still, they are a useful reference for making repeatable adjustments, even if they aren't a good indicator of absolute volume. Much of the the difference between amp gain structures is a matter of design philosophy. BTW, I hope I'm not making this a personal issue. It just seems to be something that comes up a lot in these discussions. Sorry if it has seemed that way.

... Just because
the knobs are set flat doesn't mean the preamp is flat.

Very true... and according to agedhorse, the GB amps were purposely designed not to be ruler flat, as they have a high-pass filter built in to keep the deep lows under control. Probably most amps have a characteristic voicing which makes it difficult to make direct comparisons. One trick for getting really close is to run a signal into two different preamps, sum them (in a mixer, say) and flip the phase on one of them, then adjust volume and EQ until the signal nulls (cancels).
 
Doesn't GB's testing methodology differ from other manufacturers when defining the output wattage of an amp? Static load testing vs. reactive load, or somesuch? And can/does this account for people's perception that the GB amps are "softer per watt" than other amps?

Edit: I'm thinking of the dust-up that followed Bass Gear Magazine's bench test of the GBE1200, but I didn't really follow that thread at the time, and it's Mega, so it'll take awhile to pick through it...

We use the area under the power curve method, because the output tube emulation limiter alters the waveform analogous to the way a tube power stage overdrives. This means that a standard meter (even a "true RMS") meter will not read correctly. True RMS is a math function conversion on most meters that applies only to pure sine waves. Any alteration of the shape of the waveform will result in an inccurate measurement. We also use a regulated 120 volt source (240 volts for export) so that numbers are repeatable regardless of AC power source.

There were numerous errors in measurement and methodology on the first set of reviews, we are all in agreement on this.

I have been working with Tom on how to corrolate power measurements across the various product types (including a more appropriate duty cycle based approach that does a better job of approximating dynamic power in the real world) and I hope to meet with them at NAMM to continue the progress. If we can make the tests practical to complete, I think it will help to make the test results more in line with real world experiences.

To expand a little on the power thing, my thoughts are that a continuous power number is pretty useless because a bass signal (like all music) is not a steady state signal. The FCC requires us to do all product testing at 1/8 rated power because that's pretty representative of a signal with 9dB(pwr) of dynamic range. I typically use between 1/4 and 1/3 power for all of my development testing (5-6dB) which is really at the most stringent end of heavily compressed signal. What is most important to the feel of an amp is how it handles the dynamics, and IF it has the potential to deliver higher dynamic power due to the power supply voltage, can it really deliver the goods with matching current delivery from both the power supply as well as the power amplifier. Unfortunately, this is a bit difficult (actually very difficult on the AP-1) to measure, though I am working on a mathamatical model that may give acceptable results. This is what I hope to discuss with Tom and his technical folks.

If this works out, it will give a more practical way to corrolate some numbers with how loud an amplifier sounds and just as importantly how it is likely to feel under dynamic signal such as bass guitar, in a much more simple, one or two number result.

Is this sort of thing of any interst to the readers of a magazine such as Tom's, or would it be too confusing?
 
Very true... and according to agedhorse, the GB amps were purposely designed not to be ruler flat, as they have a high-pass filter built in to keep the deep lows under control. Probably most amps have a characteristic voicing which makes it difficult to make direct comparisons. One trick for getting really close is to run a signal into two different preamps, sum them (in a mixer, say) and flip the phase on one of them, then adjust volume and EQ until the signal nulls (cancels).

Very few bass amps are really flat. All (or at least most) manufacturers use different flavors of voicing (not just eq and filters) to achieve their "signature", and that's what makes the selection of products on the market so good for the player... you can choose an amp that has the right feel for you and your own playing style rather than everything sounding (relatively) the same. Think about how boring this would be eh?
 
I have been working with Tom on how to corrolate power measurements across the various product types (including a more appropriate duty cycle based approach that does a better job of approximating dynamic power in the real world) and I hope to meet with them at NAMM to continue the progress. If we can make the tests practical to complete, I think it will help to make the test results more in line with real world experiences.

Yup! We have been working with Andy (and several other top engineers in the MI industry) on tweaking/revising our bench tests. We've also made a significant investment into some new test equipment (Audio Precision), and our Technical Editor, Tom Lees, has pretty dramatically overhauled our test methodology. You'll see some of the results in issue #4 (which went off to the printer yesterday - finally!), but we have some more tests which we plan on working in over time.

This does mean that we are going to retest all of our previously reviewed amps, including the GBE 1200.

Thanks again for your time and assistance in peer-reviewing our updated procedures, Andy! :hyper:

Is this sort of thing of any interst to the readers of a magazine such as Tom's, or would it be too confusing?

Good question! I'm all ears... :D
 
Just got a 9.0 off the little brown truck. Can not wait to take her for a test drive. I'm stoaked. :hyper:

My main goal for the amp is using it in a small lightweight 8 ohm cab.
 
Through an 8 ohm 112 you are are only getting 375 watts...no overkill at all. The 9.0 will give you 500 watts to the same 8 ohm cabinet... This is whereI feel the 9.0 to be the deal...in the single 8 ohm cabinet class. When I do ru the 12.0 it is with a cabinet off each side ( an Uber210 to be precise). To give me 750 watts instead if 600


I am using a Max 12 with an 8ohm 112 cab...overkill but the Max 12 is a great head.

I may try a 9.0 again though...the Max 12 is so over the top for me.
 
Through an 8 ohm 112 you are are only getting 375 watts...no overkill at all. The 9.0 will give you 500 watts to the same 8 ohm cabinet... This is whereI feel the 9.0 to be the deal...in the single 8 ohm cabinet class. When I do ru the 12.0 it is with a cabinet off each side ( an Uber210 to be precise). To give me 750 watts instead if 600

I'm going to take the 9.0 home for a little A/B experimenting tonight. :ninja:
 
Through an 8 ohm 112 you are are only getting 375 watts...no overkill at all. The 9.0 will give you 500 watts to the same 8 ohm cabinet... This is whereI feel the 9.0 to be the deal...in the single 8 ohm cabinet class. When I do ru the 12.0 it is with a cabinet off each side ( an Uber210 to be precise). To give me 750 watts instead if 600

I only have a 4ohm Epi 210 so it could get pretty hairy if I lost my mind and forgot to keep the master volume at a sensible level...! Though that's unlikely....

However - I just want to add that I did a brief a/b with my Epi UL502 over the holiday and I have to say I am absolutely loving the tone shaping and clarity of the 9.0 - it's just one sweet amp no question about it. The 502 is a wonderful bit of gear but it does add a warm and fuzzy colour to the sound of my bass - and having recorded direct a lot with both my Sei basses I know what they sound like au natural and so I do have a good tone base point to start from. With the GB it's great at magnifying the tones I want without adding a layer of yummy fur on top - like the Epi does. Anyway I have quite a few small gigs coming up in the next couple of months and I'm really looking forward to finding the GBs sweet spot - but playing through it every day at home is a total joy...

Mike
 
Did a quick A/B with a Shuttle 9.0 and the Carvin BX500 last night. It was into an 8 ohm load, single 15" cab. I had the lows and low mids slightly boosted on the 9.0, and the lows and low mids slightly boosted on the bx500. (slight contour and compression) It sounded, to my ears, like the bx500 had a higher output. The bx500 was a little brighter (as reported by others) and seemed louder to me. The 9.0 seemed to be slightly warmer to me. I could dial in a good overall sound with both heads. Now it's just a matter of deciding which one to keep. Good problem to have I guess :)

Edit:
I had the bx500's drive at noon, master at 8:30-9:00
9.0's gain and preamp level at noon, master at noon
 
So is it possible the 9.0 at 500 watts into the 8 ohm Shuttle 112 "pushes" it better than the 375 coming from the Max 12? It seems to sound a little more full and "tighter" or "quicker"with the 9.0.

Am I hearing things? I don't know what to believe any more.
 
Am I hearing things? I don't know what to believe any more.

I find that's the problem with specs, numbers, talkbass, and a lot of science and theory in general. In the end I find that the best answers come when I stop listening to everyone else, and listen to myself instead (or rather, my equipment). We sometimes try so hard to like and dislike things that we're "supposed" to, and it makes a big mess. Stop thinking too much and go with what you like! :D

That said, I genuinely love my shuttle 3.0-10T, all GB hype aside! Great piece of equipment. BUT... with my avatar 12" cabs, for whatever reason, I prefer my carvin BX500 head over the 3.0 head. I still wouldn't hesitate to use the 3.0, I just like the carvin more with those cabs!

For your situation, you have to decide between portability and a little extra power (9.0), vs versatility (MAX with multiple channels and more EQ)
 
So is it possible the 9.0 at 500 watts into the 8 ohm Shuttle 112 "pushes" it better than the 375 coming from the Max 12? It seems to sound a little more full and "tighter" or "quicker"with the 9.0.

Am I hearing things? I don't know what to believe any more.

I perceive the same thing you do. 375 with my SM12 into an 8ohm LDS 15/6 sounds great. But when I use the SM12 as a preamp through a QMX, 725 watts sounds better. I prefer the FET for many applications, so now carry both in a rack.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.