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Genz-Benz Streamliner Part 5

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#701
agedhorse said:
The reason for using a +/-20dB scale is to properly and accurately represent the filter and eq responses with varios amounts of boost and cut. Many amps have a boost/cut range of between 12 and 15dB, some can go as much as 20dB, so to accurately represent the big picture, all graphs should be presented with the same scale in context. 40dB of total range is easily represented visually in a reasonable size. Additional detail can then be zoomed in on, but must be clearly identified so that those less sophisticated folks are aware of this and less likely to compare an amp's +/-10dB plot with say a +/- 20dB plot. Those who do not grasp this point will mis-interpret the one with the magnified scale as less flat or less "colorful" or whatever. +/-10dB is not enough range to display the filter/eq range of most amps on the market.

I would rather not sidetrack the general discussion of the musical attributes of the amp with too much technical talk or discussion as a lot of folks find it droll (not me, not some of you, but probably the overwhelming majority).
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I agree that +/- 20dB is a more appropriate choice when evaluating the range of the EQ/filters, for sure. But I think that this range is not as appropriate when evaluating the "at noon" and "optimally flat" frequency responses. If you look at amps like the Markbass F500 and the Ampeg SVT at +/- 20dB, they would look much more alike than one would expect when listening to the two. When you narrow the vertical range of the chart, and the peaks and valleys become more visible, you get a better idea of what each amp is inherently voiced to do.

But I definitely agree that if you want to show the full range of EQ possibilities, then you need to use a vertical scale which accommodates the range of the EQs/filters.
 
#703
Blues Cat said:
Agedhorse, can you run the SL900 with the gain switch in, gain full up and gain volume full up with the master barely on and dialed up accordingly?
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sure....if you like the sound. I don't know what the advantage of running the volume full-up is though. You won't get anymore tube drive.
 
#704
hasbeen said:
sure....if you like the sound. I don't know what the advantage of running the volume full-up is though. You won't get anymore tube drive.
Click to expand...

No more tube drive, but definetely more noise. This amp is really quiet with moderate settings. As you increase the input volume to say 3ish, where I like it, there is more noise but still no louder than my M6 or MB200.
 
#706

Today, 05:41 AM
Saluki
Registered User Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Springfield, IL



Quote:
Originally Posted by hasbeen
sure....if you like the sound. I don't know what the advantage of running the volume full-up is though. You won't get anymore tube drive.

No more tube drive, but definetely more noise. This amp is really quiet with moderate settings. As you increase the input volume to say 3ish, where I like it, there is more noise but still no louder than my M6 or MB200.
__________________
SKJOLD CS5--NORDY VJ5--LAKLAND JO5--MESA M6--GB SL900--GK MB200--BERG AE410--BERG AE212

I am not a bass player, but I play one on TB!

I'm confused. Why do you like the volume at 3? Why don't you turn it down and then turn up your master?
 
#709
faulknersj said:
Hasbeen, I'm with Saluki on this one, turning the gain channel volume to 3 seems to effect the tone differently than increasing the master volume to the same degree.
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It's probably adding some noise or increasing THD when running it so hot, which comes through as more perceived mid character. It probably raises the noise floor a good bit also, which is always the case when you boost a gain stage above unity, but as hasbeen mentioned, if you like the tone then there shouldn't be a problem using it. If it sounds overly harsh then probably time to back off the channel volume and use the master instead.
 
#713
At yesterday's rehearsal I tried to match my fav. SA200 sound with the STL600.
Cab was my lovely db212, bass was a Sadowsky alder/brz 5 string rev.PJ
On the bass, there was a 20% low end boost, panned 75% to the P.

Here's what it looks like (sorry for the bad phone pic)
 
#714
Blues Cat said:
Agedhorse, can you run the SL900 with the gain switch in, gain full up and gain volume full up with the master barely on and dialed up accordingly?
Click to expand...

You could, but I do not think it would sound all that great as you would br overdriving so many stages (especially towards the back end of the amp) that unless you have a particular personal taste, it wouldn't be all that useable. There's a lot of total gain on tap, and (for most applications) the gain towards the back ofthe amp is more appropriate as eq make-up gain when using less gain in the front. Your personal milage may vary of course ;)
 
#715
bdplaid said:
I think the graph accurately represents the basic tone of the amp. However, playing with the gain structure can dramatically alter the sound of the S900. That's what I like about it. But for being such a simple amp, a lot of additional sounds can be achieved from playing with different gain settings - not the tone controls.

another thing I found when demoing it - infinite sustain. I was playing a P-bass through it (a prefect pairing IMO), with the gain all the way up. The sustain would slowly go into harmonic feedback just like the guitarists use, and it just never stopped. I've never had an amp do that, and it's awesome. Guitarists will not sleep soundly when they realize this...
Click to expand...

This is a good point, there is an added dimension to the response versus gain, ESPECIALLY as you begin to overdrive, that is not reflected in static response curves. This plays an important role in the feel and texture, where the amp becomes an unseperable part of the instrument and playing style. Touch sensitivity is something that requires a waterfall (3 dimensional) plot to show the dynamic contours. Tube amps (in general) tend to have different dynamic contours which (partially) explain the differences in feel.

To do this, each response plot at a different gain must be overlayed in a Z axis format generating the third dimension. To do this takes considerable time and effort considering there are 4 different gain ranges that must be swept over an operating range of approx. 70dB (typical bass dynamics).
 
#717
Quite possible, there's more going on under the hood than a simple 2D plot would indicate.

faulknersj said:
Aged horse, even with the gain at relatively clean at 10 or 11 o'clock, bumping the gain Volume to 9 results in what seems to me a slightly more pronounced mid presence.
Click to expand...
 
#719
tombowlus said:
I agree that +/- 20dB is a more appropriate choice when evaluating the range of the EQ/filters, for sure. But I think that this range is not as appropriate when evaluating the "at noon" and "optimally flat" frequency responses. If you look at amps like the Markbass F500 and the Ampeg SVT at +/- 20dB, they would look much more alike than one would expect when listening to the two. When you narrow the vertical range of the chart, and the peaks and valleys become more visible, you get a better idea of what each amp is inherently voiced to do.

But I definitely agree that if you want to show the full range of EQ possibilities, then you need to use a vertical scale which accommodates the range of the EQs/filters.
Click to expand...

The problem with this is that Eublet IS showing multiple eq settings and +/-5dB will not accomodate the measurements that he has shown. For his graphs, +/-15dB to +/-20dB is the appropriate vertical display scale to avoid truncating data.

Also, note that on the posted graphs, the vertical scales are all plotted differently. To compare these graphs, they should all be plotted at exactly the same scales, otherwise they are misleading for direct comparisons. Reader beware.
 
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