Get off my LAWN! "Grumpy Old Farts"

[Passinwind]

That's the thing; the ones I can find can't even read. They might have some good solo chops, which goes a long way, but they just want chord charts. That works great if you're playing blues but not on Steely Dan covers.

Roger that. I'm probably more or less the worst reader in the big band (I only sub now anyway), but I'm quite willing to shed at home and learn the parts I need to. With the sextet everyone could take a Real Book chart cold and it sounded like actual jazz, at least. For rock and other "pop" music I've never been a "like the record" guy at all. But even Grateful Dead style jam band stuff benefits greatly if everyone has shedded the tunes and put in the time. And that does seem to be becoming increasingly rare, at least in what passes for my world.

 

[BassmanPaul]

Went shopping with our niece Hannah. We love a store here called Matalan. We always get to the store every time we visit. On the way home we passed by Strawberry Fields. The Orphanage has gone but the gates remain. There were a bunch of tourists about - it’s a stop on tours of the city. Lennon’s house backed onto the property, the house itself remains a kind of museum.

 

[BargeOn]

Another one for the what's-the-world-coming-to department:
Stopped at a local ice cream stand, asked for a dozen ice cream sandwiches. The young lady behind the counter wasn't sure if that was 6 or 12. I should be grateful she was smart enough to ask.

 

[LBS-bass]

Roger that. I'm probably more or less the worst reader in the big band (I only sub now anyway), but I'm quite willing to shed at home and learn the parts I need to. With the sextet everyone could take a Real Book chart cold and it sounded like actual jazz, at least. For rock and other "pop" music I've never been a "like the record" guy at all. But even Grateful Dead style jam band stuff benefits greatly if everyone has shedded the tunes and put in the time. And that does seem to be becoming increasingly rare, at least in what passes for my world.

I'm a terrible reader, but most keyboard players learned to play in a traditional way, so I sort of expect that they can sightread. It's just a little surprising to me when they can't, or don't want to.

 

[GwenOnBass]

Seemed barely knee high to a grasshopper when they put my butt on a piano bench in front of sheet music. That first piano teacher .... wow. There are some genuinely weird piano teachers and even as I think of mine I am present to others' piano teacher stories that are beyond the pale.

It's around the age of 10 when music class becomes part of the school day. Always interesting to observe who in the neighborhood keeps a piano in the house. And who has one for show and status and who actually has a player in the house.

Every one of those players I ever met reads music as naturally as another reads the morning news. What I see is the difficulty occurs when a classically trained pianist is asked to improvise without sheet music. I find that's true of a lot of classically trained players who might have difficulty managing Chuck Berry (he's slick). That kid who learned in Joe's Garage

"And a cheesy little amp
with a sign on the front
that said Fender Champ
and a second hand guitar
it was a Stratocaster with a whammy bar"

heh. But we know what happened to Joe

 

[LBS-bass]

Seemed barely knee high to a grasshopper when they put my butt on a piano bench in front of sheet music. That first piano teacher .... wow. There are some genuinely weird piano teachers and even as I think of mine I am present to others' piano teacher stories that are beyond the pale.

It's around the age of 10 when music class becomes part of the school day. Always interesting to observe who in the neighborhood keeps a piano in the house. And who has one for show and status and who actually has a player in the house.

Every one of those players I ever met reads music as naturally as another reads the morning news. What I see is the difficulty occurs when a classically trained pianist is asked to improvise without sheet music. I find that's true of a lot of classically trained players who might have difficulty managing Chuck Berry (he's slick). That kid who learned in Joe's Garage

"And a cheesy little amp
with a sign on the front
that said Fender Champ
and a second hand guitar
it was a Stratocaster with a whammy bar"

heh. But we know what happened to Joe

So true! I've known several classically trained players who were amazing at what they do well, but could not improvise their way out of a paper bag. It's not a skill they learn in conservatory.

Most of my sight reading took place in elementary school when I learned to play violin, and later as a singer in chorus and choir. I can sightread to a degree, but mostly I'm just reading intervals. The only reason I get by is that I have a fairly good ear and know pretty much what's going to happen, as most intervals are super predictable.

 

[beans-on-toast]

Another one for the what's-the-world-coming-to department:
Stopped at a local ice cream stand, asked for a dozen ice cream sandwiches. The young lady behind the counter wasn't sure if that was 6 or 12. I should be grateful she was smart enough to ask.

Never ask a kid like that to make change without the aid of a cash register.

 

[beans-on-toast]

I was taught to read in middle school, we had music classes. No fancy instruments, just recorders, ear training, and choir. That continued when I took guitar and bass lessons at a proper music school. After a while, I quit and continued learning on my own.

Memorizing was easy. I found that reading got in the way of my playing. Chord charts and tab gave me what I needed to learn songs, then I’d fill in the rest by ear. Besides, the music that I liked only came in that format.

My wife on the other hand, took formal (diploma grades) piano lessons for years. This education left her unable to play a lick without music in front of her. She never learned to listen properly. Learning to play songs without the music allows her to play with feeling, it's much better.

Videos on the internet have transformed how people learn to play. It’s a lot simpler now. You learn by watching. Traditional notation plays less of a role when starting out. The objective is to start playing quickly rather than be bogged down with the formal rudiments. This is a good thing.

You call it lack of the ability to improvise. Too many players that rely on reading are so predictable. Listening to them, I know where they are going to go before they even go there. That can make for some pretty dull music.

 

[GonePlaid]

Another one for the what's-the-world-coming-to department:
Stopped at a local ice cream stand, asked for a dozen ice cream sandwiches. The young lady behind the counter wasn't sure if that was 6 or 12. I should be grateful she was smart enough to ask.

 

[Passinwind]

Too many players that rely on reading are so predictable. Listening to them, I know where they are going to go before they even go there. That makes for some pretty dull music.

The alto player from the big band and sextet is an interesting case. He's a really great reader, but in the sextet he would often get lost when soloing and the trumpet player would literally have to kick him at 4 bars out from the end of the chorus -- right where you'd typically want to be hitting the climax/resolution before setting up the next soloist. He rarely if ever has that problem when playing blues or funk without a chart though.

 

[GonePlaid]

[QUOTE="beans-on-toast, post: 22580145, member: 123838" Too many players that rely on reading are so predictable. Listening to them, I know where they are going to go before they even go there. That makes for some pretty dull music.

The alto player from the big band and sextet is an interesting case. He's a really great reader, but in the sextet he would often get lost when soloing and the trumpet player would literally have to kick him at 4 bars out from the end of the chorus -- right where you'd typically want to be hitting the climax/resolution before setting up the next soloist. He rarely if ever has that problem when playing blues or funk with a chart though.[/QUOTE]
Most lead altos I've worked behind are similar. They could read fly poop on toilet paper but couldn't fake to save their keester. Often the same with 1st trumpet-reading and range, yes; faking, no.

 

[Passinwind]

Most lead altos I've worked behind are similar. They could read fly poop on toilet paper but couldn't fake to save their keester. Often the same with 1st trumpet-reading and range, yes; faking, no.

The trumpet player in those bands in a monster, with a master's degree from NTSU. He can sing an improvised line for any instrument (or the written one) pretty much on the spot. Dude has saved my butt innumerable times on gigs. But of course guys like that are always already too busy to be available for side projects like the ones I'd like to take out. When the two of them show up at open mikes it's so cool. I've heard many comments that audience members out of the sight line thought it was a switchover and the house was playing canned music. When you're talking a Charlie Parker tune, that's a pretty sweet compliment!

 

[GwenOnBass]

And remembered yet forgot to post April 22 was Mingus' birthday, speaking of folks who can only read but can't play

 

[GwenOnBass]

More timely is Rainy Days and Mondays was released on April 23, 1971, recorded with Joe Osborne on bass and Hal Blaine on drums.

​

... 1971. Well. Seems to me in 1971 I'm listening to Maynard Fergeuson and John Lee Hooker and all that sort of thing, and today is St. George's Day

 

[Jeff Scott]

Seemed barely knee high to a grasshopper when they put my butt on a piano bench in front of sheet music. That first piano teacher .... wow.

Was his name Dr. T?

 

[12BitSlab]

More timely is Rainy Days and Mondays was released on April 23, 1971, recorded with Joe Osborne on bass and Hal Blaine on drums.

​

... 1971. Well. Seems to me in 1971 I'm listening to Maynard Fergeuson and John Lee Hooker and all that sort of thing, and today is St. George's Day

Karen Carpenter had one of the best voices I have ever heard. Wish she was still with us.

I saw Maynard live 6 or 7 times. Always a great show by a true master.

 

[Stumbo]

I think we're all Bozos on this bus.

Don't denigrate Bozo!

 

[GwenOnBass]

Was his name Dr. T?

May have been "88 Fingers" Louie, alleged piano fence.

 

[GwenOnBass]

Don't denigrate Bozo!

My mother was a Bozo-ette in high school.

 

[beans-on-toast]

And remembered yet forgot to post April 22 was Mingus' birthday, speaking of folks who can only read but can't play

It seems that Mingus couldn’t read fast enough early in his career and it hindered him joining a youth orchestra, leaving him feeling ostracized from classical musicians. I wonder if not reading well at the time helped him to be a better player.