Getting big fat thud tones in big resonant rooms

[jmon]

I love his tone. Thanks for posting this. You can get a good look as his technique here on his BTB.

 

[jj4001]

Talent and technique is obviously important to create a specific sound but finger anatomy matters too. I can thump like the best with my middle finger but my index finger creates a much brighter tone unless I play VERY carefully. If I need real old school thud I can only use my middle finger. Which is what Jamerson did anyway, lol.

Different bass players have different fingers and this matters more than most people realise. If anyone in my band picks up my bass when I'm in the next room I can instantly hear who it is, not based on what they play but on their tone. Some have "brighter" fingers than others.

This only applies to fingerstyle of course. With pick style I don't think it matters at all.

This is an interesting point and I've never heard it mentioned before.
I've noticed that my middle and index finger do sound different from each other, too. With a little effort I can reign it in and get a more uniform sound from both. Sometimes it's fun and sounds pretty cool to really accentuate the different sound of each finger when I'm rolling out eighth notes.

 

[jnewmark]

In the Motown documentary that came out on Showtime recently there is some brief footage of Jamerson playing. It demonstrates clearly that he uses only the index finger, and it looks like he rakes it back and forth to execute faster passages.

Not to mention that floating thumb.

 

[Ric5]

I'll keep it brief (EDIT: I tried but failed)...I grew up in an era where bass players were exploring more and more what treble can do, and while I enjoyed a lot of bassists who had dark sounds, I wanted treble, dang nab it! Never tweeter frequencies, but good brightness that made it obvious I was using a pick. And I've gone through all the ups and downs of tone that different bass players used over the years and a lot of knob twisting and setting them at noon ll kinds of crap and nonsense.

But my first pro band was with an Elvis impersonator, and he absolutely insisted that I turn my bass up all the way and turn treble and mids all the way down unless we were in a large theater, at which point he gave into soundman complaints. So naturally I hated him for it and resisted it for a long long time. But over the years, I started to see the appeal in those darker tones and started gradually cutting back on the treble, especially if it wasn't a straight up 80's rock gig, and now I'm full-on in love with them for a whole lot of things I'm doing. Not so easy to make those kinds of sounds pop in a room full of low end resonances and blasting it through big PA's.

But if you're playing rooms that are really resonant with low mids and bass response and you want dark tones, it's really not a bad idea for you to send a relatively flat signal to the PA and discuss your objectives with the sound tech. They do need you to give them mids and treble because of possible mud buildup that causes you to have no tone at all. IMHO they don't need tweeter or big fat hip hop low end frequencies, so with me they never get them but you do have to use your ears and know when something's a mistake. I love thud, but the most important thing when getting awesome thud tones in a bigger and more resonant room without mud involves not turning treble and mids so low the sound tech can't use them. Some think I micromanage my PA sound but I'm very conscious of that.

Over the past few years I've had the privilege of working with and getting to know the great Steve Boone, from the 60's folk rock band The Lovin' Spoonful. The Spoonful pretty much wrote the book on that style of music, had a butt-ton of major hits, many of which Steve wrote or co-wrote, and to this day Steve brings the thud in any room I've ever heard him play and on any supplied backline he's ever used, including a pretty wide variety of my amps. He started out playing a Guild Starfire and a Precision with flats into a B-15 in their earliest days, but since I've known him and before, he's been using an Ibanez BTB active neck-thru 4 with rounds that usually somewhat used but sounded pretty lively to me while he's playing unplugged. But you can drop him into any room across the world no matter how big or small, and his sound always has a massive low end with just enough clarity so you can make out his notes. And he's done it on a handful of my basses that don't sound like his. Flats, rounds, passive or active, it comes across. And that's his entire tonal goal and always has been with the Spoonful...put out a big warm low end that doesn't sound clanky but always clear enough to tell what notes he's playing.

And here's his secret...Steve Boone. That's just how he plays. He doesn't micromanage his sound much at all. I suppose he has some pet settings that he likes, but he gives the house a direct full range sound and will literally plug into anything you give him, and just plays like he does and has since day one. And I've heard a goodly amount of treble and mids coming out of some of the systems he plugs into, and yet, no matter what bass, amp, or PA he uses, it's this big beautiful low end with tonal clarity like I've never heard from anyone else, and it's 100% consistent and easily duplicated. He just plays in a way that lends his sound to it and lets the amp and sound techs (they don't usually bring their own, at least not on the gigs I've done with them) do what they will.

And now I'm playing in a couple bands where my goal is to get the same basic thing happening, and I believe I get a terrific sound when I want a similar vibe happening. But it's never quite like Steve's. Nobody's is. I do my best, but I play like me and I'll never fully cop his sound because of that. And that's OK. Before anything else, tone is always from the musician. But if there's one thing I've learned from working with him (and there's plenty more besides that), the way you cop a great big fat wall of thud and still achieve clarity without clank in any really resonant room for bass is to play like you want it really bad, give the sound tech enough tools to deal with translating it in the house, and the rest falls into place. But playing like you want it really bad is key and it'll never happen otherwise.

Somewhere you need a good EQ circuit … either on the bass or in a pedal or in your amp … or all 3 … then you can dial in a tone that works for the room

Also I like to play with 2x10 cabs that have Eminence speakers that are basically midrange pa speakers 50hz to 3khz if I remember the specs correctly and this keeps me from getting too boomy or too dinky

 

[Max Bogosity]

But playing like you want it really bad is key

Ah, there’s my error. I keep playing like I want it really good, and it turns out the other way. Must be some kind of reverse psychology thing.

 

[Upfromthesky]

Interesting. Do you have any insight into aspects of Boone’s playing such as how hard he plucks, muting, what registers he plays in, how he structures his lines etc? In other words things that aren’t gear related.

 

[Deleted member 271037]

I think you mean index finger as far as Jamerson is concerned. In this pic, you can clearly see the three fingers anchored, and the index finger the actual one plucking.View attachment 3575782

Yeah, you're right of course, I got my fingers mixed up, lol. But my point was, I need to use ONE finger to get an even FAT thump when I dig in. And for me it's the middle finger. If I use two fingers when I dig in my index finger is considerably brighter sounding unless I take REALLY care to compensate. Which isn't necessarily bad. In fact it's great to accentuate certain notes like that but sometimes I need to go one-finger style for the most even, fat thud. It's just how my fingers are shaped.

 

[Deleted member 271037]

I agree that personal technique is a big piece of the equation. For me, it comes down to two things.

The first is attack. I think it needs to be a distinct attack. I usually finger pick, but it is a firm attack. I use a pick on songs where the song needs it or the rhythm fits a pick better. I generally use little to no compression. If you do compress, make sure that it the attack parameter is adjusted so that the attack doesn't get squashed.

An interesting sidelight. I have a Line6 Variax 705 modelling bass. It is a cool piece of kit, but one thing keeps me from using it very much. It has no attack. I assume it has to do with the modelling algorithm or some compression it does internally. Every time I play it, and then switch back to any of my other basses, I get this feeling of, "Wow, I really missed the attack that was not there on the Variax." I've tried different strings, but nothing brings an attack.

Just as important (or maybe more) is your release. In my view, legato is your enemy. I instinctively end notes by lifting my fretting finger before hitting the next note. Lift just enough to mute or choke the note off. Another thing I do is end a note just as the snare drum hits, giving plenty of space for the snare. I understand that some sound guys put a gate on the bass channel, driven by the snare channel. I prefer to do the mute myself. It's part of my groove.

I think these techniques really make a difference, especially in a boomy and reverberant space. I know a bassist in a local dance-oriented band that insists on playing with "his sound". His sound is picked, highly compressed, kind of clanky and has no space between notes. In every band I've heard him in, the low end in the room just turns to a loud, indistinct mush.

Those are my thoughts. YMMV.

YES, very good point about release. If you've got your release right you're groovin'!!! If not... well, you're not.

 

[707GK]

There are a lot of good arguments to the “tone is in the right hand” opinion. This story is a great example of that.

Also I love sending a “flat” signal to the house and working with them on the tone. It has worked out in my favor more often than not.

 

[JimmyM]

So you conclude that it’s all in his hands.

Plucking technique is important. Pick or fingers, dig in or light touch. Does Steve use a mute, sponge at bridge or palm. All contribute.

Steve does play a little closer to the neck then most, and he plays somewhat light but nothing out of the ordinary , but he doesn't do anything like foam or palm muting.

 

[Stumbo]

Steve does play a little closer to the neck then most, and he plays somewhat light but nothing out of the ordinary , but he doesn't do anything like foam or palm muting.

Maybe he's letting up on each note so it doesn't ring out.

 

[JimmyM]

Interesting. Do you have any insight into aspects of Boone’s playing such as how hard he plucks, muting, what registers he plays in, how he structures his lines etc? In other words things that aren’t gear related.

He does play somewhat close to the neck and while he doesn't play super light, he doesn't play all that hard either. His note choices and registers vary with the song. He'll do simple root 5 bottom holding on a song like Nashville cats, or he'll do a lot of upper register somewhat intricate stuff on did you ever have to make up your mind. Those are the two most extreme songs they do that I can think of, and everything else they do is somewhere in between.

 

[JimmyM]

Maybe he's letting up on each note so it doesn't ring out.

Sometimes he does for sure. Not everything, but it's one of his tools.

 

[beans-on-toast]

Steve does play a little closer to the neck then most, and he plays somewhat light but nothing out of the ordinary , but he doesn't do anything like foam or palm muting.

It wouldn’t hurt to ask him for a lesson and talk technique

 

[JoeWPgh]

Just as important (or maybe more) is your release. In my view, legato is your enemy. I instinctively end notes by lifting my fretting finger before hitting the next note. Lift just enough to mute or choke the note off.

I always go back to Verdine White for this. He was a master at controlling how long to ring a note. His quarter notes might be a 1/32, 1/16, an 1/8 or anything in between, and his choices always helped to propel the groove.

 

[JimmyM]

Wasn't sure how this thread would be received, since the main thrust of it is that tone is in the player's hands, but glad to see that it's being well-received. And nothing I'm about to say should make you think it should be any different. But now that we're humming along with that theme, I'm about to toss in a monkey wrench and use Steve to demonstrate why despite knowing all this, I'm a tone chaser who micromanages what goes to the PA.

Several years ago, we did a 2-week cruise where the Spoonful did two shows. Since all I brought for an amp was my little Ampeg BA110 v1, Steve used the main house amp, which was a GK 800RB and a Hartke 4.5 XL, which he loved because his own rig is a Hartke. The first show, they were all set up before I got to the soundcheck, and I was going to let him use my A-Designs REDDI tube DI, but he was already set up with a Whirlwind Director (a very underrated cheap DI) and decided not to worry about it. Steve's sound was terrific.

The next week, they did their second show in the same room, and I got there early. I say to Steve, "Wanna use my REDDI today?"

Steve asks, "What's a REDDI?"

"The best DI in the world."

"Well I'd be a fool not to use the best DI in the world, wouldn't I?"

And even though he had the same sound crew and same basic big fat thud sound in the house as the week before, there was a tubey richness to his tone that wasn't there the first show, and while some may have not noticed it, pretty much everyone in our little cavalcade of entertainers and crew did. It sounded great both weeks, no doubt, and while Steve does appreciate good gear, he didn't care all that much, but it was definitely noticeable.

So in no way should my "Tone is in the fingers" chanting be construed as "Don't chase tone." I think it's a noble cause, and you have to use something so you might as well get gear you like. Even Steve does

 

[fhm555]

Talent is a wonderful thing. It's like golf - you can't just buy a swing.

But like golf it takes ten minutes to pick up the grip and swing, but it takes a lifetime for most to perfect it.

 

[JimmyM]

It wouldn’t hurt to ask him for a lesson and talk technique

We had many discussions on his playing and his tone, and what he told me is that his role in the band is to give a big fat bottom end to their songs, and everything he does revolves around making sure that's what they get. Beyond that, he said he just does what he does. And honestly, I think I might irritate him when I start trying to take him down rabbit holes of tone chasing and technique. He's way more interested in songwriting and creation of his parts.

 

[beans-on-toast]

We had many discussions on his playing and his tone, and what he told me is that his role in the band is to give a big fat bottom end to their songs, and everything he does revolves around making sure that's what they get. Beyond that, he said he just does what he does. And honestly, I think I might irritate him when I start trying to take him down rabbit holes of tone chasing and technique. He's way more interested in songwriting and creation of his parts.

He also locks in with the bass drum. I think that makes a difference.
Thump every time there’s a smack.

 

[scuzzy]

We had many discussions on his playing and his tone, and what he told me is that his role in the band is to give a big fat bottom end to their songs, and everything he does revolves around making sure that's what they get. Beyond that, he said he just does what he does. And honestly, I think I might irritate him when I start trying to take him down rabbit holes of tone chasing and technique. He's way more interested in songwriting and creation of his parts.

I'm just glad this isn't another "boost your upper mids" thread. I appreciate cut-through when needed, but I never need that in my current situation. Bass and low mid boost, flat or slight cut at the upper-mid and treble. I want my tone to have some booty.


Plucking near the fretboard effectively gives the booty, takes out the upper frequencies. Love it.

Thanks for sharing! Great reading here.