Getting big fat thud tones in big resonant rooms

[JimmyM]

I don't think you can get further from the truth.

I don't either. I liked most of his post but he lost me at the "With the pick it doesn't matter" thing. Only if you think Paul McCartney and Chris Squire sound the same does it not matter.

 

[Vinny_G]

If you see tone as strictly a matter of EQ, I can understand the resistance to the idea that tone is in the fingers. But if you also see attack and decay as part of tone, then it's very much in the fingers. And for me, attack is one of the most prominent aspects of 'tone'. How and where you attack the string does more to tone than any 3 clicks of a knob.

Thank you for talking about that, I see it so rarely. Especially since it is true for both hands.

 

[pbass2]

An excellent point. I find that to be the case as well. Do I think it's 100% necessary? Not after hearing Steve rock a BTB with rounds so many times. But a P with flats is my ticket for it, too, so I'm not arguing

I hear ya. Having been on a few reggae tours opening up for some serious reggae cats who played all manner of basses--from modern active fivers to Fenders, to you-name-it ---those guys could play Lemmy's rig and make it sound dubby. It is indeed, mostly in the hands.

 

[dbsfgyd1]

You're correct about my first point but a little off on the second. I don't find it necessary to send a dead flat signal to the board with every single frequency from 20-20k available to the tech. And since I want my DI signal to sound like what I get out of an Ampeg 810e, I cut those highs and lows completely out to match it. They're never necessary for what I do, and since I work with a variety of techs, I can't always trust them to make those cuts. I will also sculpt the sound coming out of my amp to my liking, and if I'm not using the REDDI and/or VT Deluxe to the board, I'll boost bass a bit and cut treble a bit as well. And depending on how much the room lets me, I may do stuff like turning the tone knob on my bass down, even all the way down once in a while if the room lets me.

But I am a very experienced player whose likes and dislikes are set in stone, I've learned to read the room and use a wireless to check it when I can, and I know when I'm in a room that will go squirrely if I go too far. I also have zero interest in being super loud, and I'll often suggest that I don't need to be that loud. So for newbs or people who haven't figured it out yet, I would suggest sending your signal to the board with something that doesn't deviate from flat response too much and leaves plenty of room for the tech to work the room as needed. But for those of us who have it figured out by and large, it's perfectly OK to sculpt your tone as long as you don't make it impossible for the tech to deal with problems, since dead flat response doesn't sound all that good to me, and our basses vary so much in tone that it really doesn't exist anyway.

Good response Jimmy. I’ve played mostly with FOH support for decades sending a flat signal and I have rarely have an issue with my sound. Of course, my bass into my stage monitor is fairly flat, just a slight boost at 130- to 150hz. Like you, I have no need to be loud in the mix, or on stage either. I don’t go out in front often, but I do record ambient house mixes of all gigs for review. And it is agreed in full, you don’t want to give the sound tech a bunch of mess to work around.

 

[Peter196]

I read the whole threat. . . . What was the question??

 

[Wasnex]

I learned so about "tone is in the hands" during my first trip to NAMM. I can remember just being floored by the fact that every bassist, playing the same bass, through the same rig, would sound quite different. I remember the first few guys that came through the booth weren't very good players and the tone they were getting was so bad that I at first thought I had an issue with my speaker cabs. All clacky, lots of fret noise, no warmth in the lows and they seemed to be able to get the drivers to fart out fairly easily even though the volume wasn't very high. Spent a good hour taking apart a couple cabs just to check for issues.

I was pulling my hair out trying to figure what was wrong. And then the "players" started showing up. These guys would sit down, pick up the same bass that sounded like crap two minutes ago and manage to coax the most wonderful tones out of the bass without touching a knob. These guys played with no clack, no buzz and got these huge round, warm tones that transformed the rig into something spectacular. So, I really started paying attending to what they were doing. First thing I noticed right away was the right hand technique. Almost all these guys played in a way that was quite different than how I have always played. Where I tend to have an aggressive attack and hit the strings downward (bad habits from always trying to sound like Geddy and Squire as a kid), these guys almost always had a lighter touch where they brush their fingers over the strings, keeping the stroke parallel to the bass body. This really blew my mind because the guys who were getting the biggest, fattest tones, were the guys hitting the strings the softest. I also realized that these guys would crank up the amp to make up for the lack of volume coming from the bass. I was also floored by the fact that these guys could also get the amp much louder without the woofers farting out. It was quite an educational experience for me.

After I got home from NAMM, I really started listening to some of my favorite recordings and I started to realize that the tones I thought were the most supportive of the music, were the ones where there was not a lot of high end coming from the bass. Buy why is this? Well, because the engineers doing the mixes were coming at the music quite differently than most bassist come at "their tone". These mix engineers make sure that each instrument has its own defined space within the mix, which is quite different than us bassist who tend to focus on reproducing the entire range of our wildly dynamic instrument. So, I started thinking of my instrument from a mixing engineer's point of view, which meant stop focusing on recreating the entire frequency range of my instrument and instead start focusing on what I needed to do to provide the most supportive low end I could for the music. And like you Jimmy, I started to realize that this meant turning up the bass, cutting back on the top end and learning to boost somewhere in the 250Hz to 500Hz range for definition, which is an area I never really boosted before. Good tone is always a work in progress, but my tonal preferences have definitely moved more towards the old school.

I came up as a string bass player, so I originally kept my plucking fingers pretty straight. On BG I used anchored thumb and positioned my hand so the plucking action was essentially parallel to the finger board as you describe. I had decent tone that was really smooth, even, and consistent, but not very expressive.

About 15 years ago I had the opportunity to closely observe the plucking technique of a young, super talented bassist who had phenomenal tone. What I noticed is he used floating thumb and bent plucking fingers. I have adopted these techniques and find that it allows me to play more expressively and also create a tone that has a bit more depth and focus. Basically by bending your plucking fingers, you can vary the angle of attack with the strings, so you can get a wider range of tones.

 

[Copperhead]

Steve does play a little closer to the neck then most, and he plays somewhat light but nothing out of the ordinary , but he doesn't do anything like foam or palm muting.

This is a key element. So many players pluck close to the bridge. Look at Jamerson's picture. Hes in the heartland of fat tone on a P bass.

 

[JimmyM]

I read the whole threat. . . . What was the question??

Yeah, I like sarcasm sometimes, too. But if you truly read the thread, Wacky Post Guy you would see that there is no question. I already know what to do to achieve the thud without mud. I just wanted to hear from other players who have the same goals, hear what they suggest, and answer any questions folks might have.

 

[JimmyM]

This is a key element. So many players pluck close to the bridge. Look at Jamerson's picture. Hes in the heartland of fat tone on a P bass.

While this certainly doesn't hurt, I don't find it imperative. And I've played Steve's BTB with his exact amp and PA settings and tried to cop what he's doing, and I still don't sound quite as massive as Steve. I've also played my basses varying where I pluck the strings while still trying to sound big and fat, and while I'll agree that playing over the end of the neck or close to it does result in the fattest possible sound, I usually end up playing in the middle because it's easier for me, and I can still bring the fat even when I'm playing closer to the bridge. I chose Steve as an extreme example of someone who wants it to be as fat as he possibly can get but never sounds muddy even in arenas. I never heard that kind of fat low end while still being able to tell what notes he plays in my life, but I'm OK if my sound is dialed down a notch or two in the lows. It's still pretty massive if I say so myself

 

[Copperhead]

My high school music teacher used to say that fat fingers make good tone. I think that helps too.

 

[Vinny_G]

My high school music teacher used to say that fat fingers make good tone. I think that helps too.

When I was taking classical guitar lessons in my youth, once my teacher wrote in capital letters on my score: more sound! Because apparently I had to be a bit shy in my execution. I never forgot that sentence. Every time I play I remember it.

 

[BogeyBass]

jeeez Jimmy

I thought i made long posts. LOL


But i read it, and i like the thread.

Gotta say even in the guitar world ive been lucky to work with some amazing players that get very consistent tone on any amp/instrument.

Likewise can remember when i realized tone was " in the hands" and spent more time working with technique
Was influenced greatly from a bassist when i was doing recordings. it was amazing how he got consistent tone. through so many amps and basses.
and nailed his tracks second if not first track.

" Tone is in the hands" is a statement i read on Talkbass. But when i seen it, it made me think what a quick simple statement to make the point. Something that could save so much time for upcoming new players. and guys distracted by the tone search with amps.

having been in so many bands and projects over the years, id say ive started enjoying playing my bass unplugged and just listen and work with the tone of the body. and helps remove distractions

and with various recording projects, always did a " dry" track or straight to board as a emergency back up track, and then found many times that the " safe track" or backup track became most the mix

 

[JimmyM]

My high school music teacher used to say that fat fingers make good tone. I think that helps too.

That is because of what upright players call "string engagement." Most good ones use the sides of their fingers and use as much of them as possible because the more string engagement you get, you can get a bigger and louder tone. When amplified it's not quite as necessary, but it certainly does not hurt.

 

[higain617]

I have nothing to add except that I worked with an Elvis impersonator. He was a rather large dude, so I assume he did late-period King.

 

[JimmyM]

jeeez Jimmy

I thought i made long posts. LOL


But i read it, and i like the thread.

Gotta say even in the guitar world ive been lucky to work with some amazing players that get very consistent tone on any amp/instrument.

Likewise can remember when i realized tone was " in the hands" and spent more time working with technique
Was influenced greatly from a bassist when i was doing recordings. it was amazing how he got consistent tone. through so many amps and basses.
and nailed his tracks second if not first track.

" Tone is in the hands" is a statement i read on Talkbass. But when i seen it, it made me think what a quick simple statement to make the point something that could save so much time for upcoming new players. and guys distracted by the tone search with amps.

having been in so many bands and projects over the years, id say ive started enjoying playing my bass unplugged and just listen and work with the tone of the body

and with various recording projects, always did a " dry" track or straight to board as a emergency back up track, and then found many times that the " safe track" or backup track became most the mix

And that's exactly why I hate giving anyone a straight-to-the-board backup track! I'll do it for someone else's stuff if they want, but if I wanted that sound, I'd give it to them. And way too often did I get that result, or they'd say, "We'll add it in the mix," and they never do.

But I enjoyed your post as well. Good stuff. Overall.

 

[Copperhead]

When I was taking classical guitar lessons in my youth, once my teacher wrote in capital letters on my score: more sound! Because apparently I had to be a bit shy in my execution. I never forgot that sentence. Every time I play I remember it.

The late great Ray Brown said "Play the song like you own it".

 

[JimmyM]

I have nothing to add except that I worked with an Elvis impersonator. He was a rather large dude, so I assume he did late-period King.

Mine was, too. Tried to do early Elvis once and was a dismal failure, so he stuck to his strengths and nailed overweight jumpsuit Elvis.

 

[Vinny_G]

The late great Ray Brown said "Play the song like you own it".

Exactly, I think it's the same idea.

 

[Copperhead]

That is because of what upright players call "string engagement." Most good ones use the sides of their fingers and use as much of them as possible because the more string engagement you get, you can get a bigger and louder tone. When amplified it's not quite as necessary, but it certainly does not hurt.

It works on my Guild acoustic

 

[BogeyBass]

And that's exactly why I hate giving anyone a straight-to-the-board backup track! I'll do it for someone else's stuff if they want, but if I wanted that sound, I'd give it to them. And way too often did I get that result, or they'd say, "We'll add it in the mix," and they never do.

But I enjoyed your post as well. Good stuff. Overall.

LOL I played drums for post rock band and always hated drums with to much reverb.

So my bassist and guitar player decided to remix a few songs just bathed in Reverb and slapback delay and posted it at the time on Facebook , krap i mean Myspace as a Joke.

I was super super peeved off and luckily had " backup" guitar and bass tracks.

the bassist hated Chorus with a passion, and the guitar player thought phaser was the worst effect ever invented.

Of course i did a amazing remix of the tracks with buckets of phaser and chorus to get even. but after getting the whole reverb joke with my drums, i also retriggered all my drums with horrible horrible 80s roland drum sounds.

why im mentioning this...i dont know. but i know the feeling of getting great tone on a recording to have someone not use it or ruin a mix with post production. and also having big fights with band members over final mixes. in the end we realized how much skill we had and years later found the story rather comical. even though a simple joke turned into big fights and in the end we actually kept the bathed reverb drums up on the internet.

the guys werent that computer savy at the time, so it was pretty funny they actually got into my computer and managed to figure out how to mix, render and convert the songs for upload, and do this all in one night