Go big or go home

[Kukulkan61]

It’s ok, I’ll stay with my Mesa Subway Cabs and my little BIG 800 watt GK Head and still sound just as goods the Big guys...

 

[Rip Van Dan]

I had a nice Sunn 1x10 1x15 cab back in the 80's

I still have a Sunn B202 (212 cab) but it only handles 100-watts and is way too easy to fart out with the amps I use now.

 

[Nevada Pete]

I've been lucky in that my band members have always been happy to help lug in a full sized PA (towers and bins) as well as my bass rig. But, I will only let those people who are passionate about the sound and the show into my band. But again, I realize that I have been very fortunate to have played with like minded people.

Well, I bet your skill as a musician and band leader has a lot more to do with it than luck. Good show!

 

[lizardking837]

With the growing number of threads directed towards going direct and lightweight amps I think it’s about time for a thread which brings us back to some punch-you-in-the-chest reality and why some of us will never let go of the heavy iron.

So why full-sized stage amps when running into a FOH system can get you just as loud? In my opinion, the answer to this question is what separates the boys from the men with regards to your sound. Somewhere along the way, the lure of minimalist setups has fooled guitarist and bassists into giving up their beloved stage possessions… namely their amplifiers. In some cases, giving them up totally, and in others trading them for stage monitor versions of their amplifiers. This was done under the thought that ‘it sounds just as good out front’. Well guess what? No, no it doesn’t. It doesn’t in a small bar, and it doesn’t in a concert venue. And, your live playing might take a dive as well. First off, just like cymbals and snare drums real amplifiers reverberate off the walls and ceiling – even in large venues. These reflections come at you in a multi-directional fashion and carry not only realistic characteristics of the amp but also the ‘color’ of the venue which you are playing in. And, it sounds awesome! This akin to a real band vs. a DJ or band in a box. Sound which is originated or largely amplified by the FOH is generally coming from isolated points left and right. And, this is done without the benefit of studio processing where mic placement, reverb, delay and compression have been strategically used to give the illusion of reality. Combine the sound projection coming from a glorified stereo with a flat mix and you are no aural competition for the real deal. Most people may not be able to put their finger on it, but they can tell the sound is kind of… meh, lacking excitement. Well, how about full-sized ‘light weight’ amps? I’m sorry to say, but there is a certain ‘heft’ to the sound of the old school gear. For many reasons it’s the heavy components in transformers, speakers, and cabinets that just can’t be beat when you want the best sound without compromise. In the end, I am certainly not telling anyone what gear you should use – use whatever makes you happy. But, if you’d like some straight talk on how to go directly to some world class sound, go for classic gear. Gear that is sized right for your stage and venue when using the FOH for reinforcement – not your primary sound source. Lean towards tube or solid-state amps with reputations of being work horses. You don’t need to over do it with speaker cabinets, but, bring enough so that your cabinets have plenty of head room to support your sound. There’s a reason why so many touring bass players use 2 4x10’s or an 8x10. Do you need that? No. Will it give you amazing authority, touch sensitivity and headroom? Absolutely. Gear that is undersized takes away your feel. Again, none of this is necessary. But if you’ve reached the point where you and your band just need a great sound than hopefully this helps you find your way. Lastly, while hefty amps and speaker cabinets do play and sound great in all sized venues, they can ruin your hearing and give you tinnitus. This is some serious stuff my brothers. Regardless of your amp size, you should have controlled stage volume and use in ears. Rock on!

I will say this: When you show up with a 4x10" for your bass and your guitar player has a 100 watt head and 4 x 12" there really is an intimidation factor. My senior year of High School the band I was in (stoner rock/metal power trio) showed up with that backline and our drummer full kit while we were all wearing work clothes and boots. The bands that followed us, showed up in school clothes with small combos, laptops and drum pads. It was really interesting to see the reactions of the crowd and how the sound changed between acts. In reality we completely overpowered the room but it sounded like a metal concert. In between acts I was outside getting some air and a few of my friends said that they were leaving because the 2nd and 3rd bands 'just didn't sound like real bands.'

 

[tshapiro]

Ah Jimmy with the truthiest of truths.

I cannot bear to part with my SVT (my pet dragon). I feel like I would loose perspective on what the 'realest' thing is. And when it's real it's super real. Any other amp just feels like a snapshot or a plastic recreation of the real thing in comparison. Every bassist should know what that feeling is. Go and play any other large super amp you want, but, I feel that the 'SVT' thing is as necessary to familiarize yourself with as a bassist as P-basses with flats. The way I explain it is (if you have a sound tech who is down with it) you can be hilariously too loud and not be told to turn down because it sounds so good. Yet, other amps can be half as loud and be super fatiguing, even with a kind of a similar tone, and the sound man will be on you.

There isn't a single gig that I could possibly use it on, yet if there is ever a gig that I can remotely justify it...

Otherwise, for corporate and cover gigs I am in that lazy bass player club who is totally down with bringing his BDDI, running it on phantom with a wedge. My tear down time is unplugging an XLR cord and putting my bass, di, and cable in a bag.

Yet I do reminisce for the days when I brought smaug to my jazz trio's coffee shop gig...

I fully agree... The SVT into the 810 is the quintessential punch you in the chest rig. I don't use one, but, I do make it a point to go listen to local bass players who use them so I can have that perspective in my ear.

 

[tshapiro]

I will say this: When you show up with a 4x10" for your bass and your guitar player has a 100 watt head and 4 x 12" there really is an intimidation factor. My senior year of High School the band I was in (stoner rock/metal power trio) showed up with that backline and our drummer full kit while we were all wearing work clothes and boots. The bands that followed us, showed up in school clothes with small combos, laptops and drum pads. It was really interesting to see the reactions of the crowd and how the sound changed between acts. In reality we completely overpowered the room but it sounded like a metal concert. In between acts I was outside getting some air and a few of my friends said that they were leaving because the 2nd and 3rd bands 'just didn't sound like real bands.'

Exactly.

 

[drumvsbass]

I fully agree... The SVT into the 810 is the quintessential punch you in the chest rig. I don't use one, but, I do make it a point to go listen to local bass players who use them so I can have that perspective in my ear.

Yea, like you can use a Gk/Markbass/SWR whatever the opposite of that is. But you should also know why it's the opposite, and why the people that dig it will sacrifice their lower vertebrae for it.

Perspectives are interesting. I once had a customer say to me that he loves the 'growl' on his tone, but hates string noise, distortion, and mids, often is told he is too loud, yet he feels his tone is getting lost in the mix, had a bajillion watts of GK into an SWR 810... Didn't like Ampegs, but never really tried one... (true story) You can't save everyone.

 

[Pings Bass]

My brother, I'm sure you have plenty of experience. But, getting a good live sound with real amps is half the fun!

Sure, I had my fun. I used to schlepp a franken-rig with 2x15 + 2x12 and enough BGW power to bypass the PA and still be the loudest thing in the mix in a medium-sized club. Eventually our sound guy talked me into going with a side-fill config with it so he could get a better FOH mix. Suddenly the drummer could hear me better, too. That's when I realized with better stage monitors, I could significantly downsize my rig and still get my sound.

I also used to do sound in clubs and festivals, and I can assure you the hardest bands to make sound good FOH were the ones with massive stage volume. The Replacements come to mind. Also the Killer Bees, a reggae band with a keyboard bass cranked so loud on stage I couldn't pull the kick drum out of the mud.

I mean, I get the attraction of moving air. But as one member of the ensemble, I'm more interested in the whole thing sounding good out front than in feeling my pants moving in the bass winds on stage.

 

[lucas303]

You're damn right go big...

 

[tshapiro]

Sure, I had my fun. I used to schlepp a franken-rig with 2x15 + 2x12 and enough BGW power to bypass the PA and still be the loudest thing in the mix in a medium-sized club. Eventually our sound guy talked me into going with a side-fill config with it so he could get a better FOH mix. Suddenly the drummer could hear me better, too. That's when I realized with better stage monitors, I could significantly downsize my rig and still get my sound.

I also used to do sound in clubs and festivals, and I can assure you the hardest bands to make sound good FOH were the ones with massive stage volume. The Replacements come to mind. Also the Killer Bees, a reggae band with a keyboard bass cranked so loud on stage I couldn't pull the kick drum out of the mud.

I mean, I get the attraction of moving air. But as one member of the ensemble, I'm more interested in the whole thing sounding good out front than in feeling my pants moving in the bass winds on stage.

Just saying that head room and heft doesn’t mean you have to play overly loud.

 

[tshapiro]

You're damn right go big...

OMG!!! (That pic)

 

[DrayMiles]

View attachment 3609658
Cool big rig

I guarantee she isn't carrying that backline.... And if it's a union stage, she isn't even supposed to move it. At that level, there are roadies... And I suspect that only one of those cabinets are on. No one is denying the sound of a nice 8x10 cabinet blossoming at volume, but it's not practical unless you have financial backing for road crew or a nice residency, where you can leave the gear on a long term basis.

I would love to have an Ampeg SVT with an 8x10 cab., but I'm not willing to further compromise my herniated L4 - L5 or agitate my herniated disc.

I don't like the idea of head banging in a wheel chair or only from the waist up if it can be avoided... And as much as I love playing, ain't that much love in the world...

 

[promdates]

And I suspect that only one of those cabinets are on.

There's no cable going into the front of the right side. It could also just be a backup one. A lot of times there's multiple amps/cabs and they have a Main/Backup setup in case the main dies due to something.

 

[Pings Bass]

Just saying that head room and heft doesn’t mean you have to play overly loud.

No argument there. I've just learned from experience that mons and mains are the best place for headroom and heft if you want a clear FOH mix.

I remember having an aha moment when I learned that all the arena bands I was seeing in the 80s had dummy cabs on stage with their actual amps mic'd up in iso boxes backstage.

 

[DrayMiles]

There's no cable going into the front of the right side. It could also just be a backup one. A lot of times there's multiple amps/cabs and they have a Main/Backup setup in case the main dies due to something.

Yep, usually a backup in case of emergency.

 

[Tom Gallo]

I'm shaking my head at people posting pictures of bass players in well known bands with their rigs. It's easy to go big when all you need to do is show up, have a bass put in your hands and off you go.

I suspect that most people around here are doing gigs where the only thing a big rig does is stroke the ego.

 

[Rip Van Dan]

With the growing number of threads directed towards going direct and lightweight amps I think it’s about time for a thread which brings us back to some punch-you-in-the-chest reality and why some of us will never let go of the heavy iron.

So why full-sized stage amps when running into a FOH system can get you just as loud? In my opinion, the answer to this question is what separates the boys from the men with regards to your sound. Somewhere along the way, the lure of minimalist setups has fooled guitarist and bassists into giving up their beloved stage possessions… namely their amplifiers. In some cases, giving them up totally, and in others trading them for stage monitor versions of their amplifiers. This was done under the thought that ‘it sounds just as good out front’. Well guess what? No, no it doesn’t. It doesn’t in a small bar, and it doesn’t in a concert venue. And, your live playing might take a dive as well. First off, just like cymbals and snare drums real amplifiers reverberate off the walls and ceiling – even in large venues. These reflections come at you in a multi-directional fashion and carry not only realistic characteristics of the amp but also the ‘color’ of the venue which you are playing in. And, it sounds awesome! This akin to a real band vs. a DJ or band in a box. Sound which is originated or largely amplified by the FOH is generally coming from isolated points left and right. And, this is done without the benefit of studio processing where mic placement, reverb, delay and compression have been strategically used to give the illusion of reality. Combine the sound projection coming from a glorified stereo with a flat mix and you are no aural competition for the real deal. Most people may not be able to put their finger on it, but they can tell the sound is kind of… meh, lacking excitement. Well, how about full-sized ‘light weight’ amps? I’m sorry to say, but there is a certain ‘heft’ to the sound of the old school gear. For many reasons it’s the heavy components in transformers, speakers, and cabinets that just can’t be beat when you want the best sound without compromise. In the end, I am certainly not telling anyone what gear you should use – use whatever makes you happy. But, if you’d like some straight talk on how to go directly to some world class sound, go for classic gear. Gear that is sized right for your stage and venue when using the FOH for reinforcement – not your primary sound source. Lean towards tube or solid-state amps with reputations of being work horses. You don’t need to over do it with speaker cabinets, but, bring enough so that your cabinets have plenty of head room to support your sound. There’s a reason why so many touring bass players use 2 4x10’s or an 8x10. Do you need that? No. Will it give you amazing authority, touch sensitivity and headroom? Absolutely. Gear that is undersized takes away your feel. Again, none of this is necessary. But if you’ve reached the point where you and your band just need a great sound than hopefully this helps you find your way. Lastly, while hefty amps and speaker cabinets do play and sound great in all sized venues, they can ruin your hearing and give you tinnitus. This is some serious stuff my brothers. Regardless of your amp size, you should have controlled stage volume and use in ears. Rock on!

I slowly worked my way up to a DNS-410 by DNA after having all my musical gear stolen in 1976. Was a long, slow, and unsatisfying journey until I finally got that cab. It worked great everywhere indoors, outdoors, and outdoor festivals. Driving it with my 800-watt Eden amp I could never turn it about 10 o'clock even at the outdoor festivals (cab is miked at the festivals). Here's that rig (you may have seen this pic a few times):

It looks fairly unassuming but that cab will handle 1400-watts rms (both thermally and mechanically). Max SPL is 137db and you don't want to be anywhere near it at those levels. I don't need an 810 with this. Problem I ran into was it scared some owners of small clubs. So then I went with a small 112 set-up. Sounded good, but once we played outside this club that required using the small one indoors. I rolled out my 410 and it sounded so much better than my 112 or 2x112 set-ups that I decided to get a DNS-210 that had the same sound characteristics as my 410 but didn't look intimidating.

So I bought my DNS-210 right at the time I was added as one of DNA's endorsers. It will handle 700-watts rms, so I usually run my 800-watt Eden amp into it. For practice at our rehearsal studio, I use a small class D Eden TN226 to run it. It's only putting out about 135-watts or so but that's plenty loud with this cab in our studio. I expect this will be the rig I play most of our gigs with:

Not as big as my 410 but it still is just as clear, articulate, and full sounding as my DNS-410.

And as far as "Go Big or Go Home", I don't really need to do it, but if I want to, I can run them both together:

I have an acoustic B410 I could stack on top of my DNS-410, if I so desired, to turn it into an 810 stack, but the DNS-210 is MUCH louder than my acoustic B410 that the resulting 810 would be a step back. So this DNA 610 stack is my BIG rig. I just hope I will find someplace I can use it this year. I would definitely use it on a coliseum stage, but even with an outdoor festival, my DNS-410 is more than enough.

 

[lizardking837]

You're damn right go big...

And they say you can't hear photographs.....I can hear my ears ringing already...

 

[SimonSays32]

My own experience has been that you use an appropriate sized amp for the size of room you are playing. I’ve never played a stadium - so I can’t say for sure what type of setup I would want in that size of space (likely running through the sound system is the way to go in that scenario). For a medium sized club or hall - I think having the physical sound source works better in the over all dynamics of the performance, even if you are micing and sending that signal to the sound system.

As for small amps - I love them in the studio as they are more versatile and easier to manipulate. I typically reserve my bigger guitar amps for things like solos where I might want that loud amp in an open room sound.

FYI - I typically don’t go to many stadium shows, as much as I love music I prefer not to be stuck in crowds of 10000+ people. Lol

 

[Panek]

Seems like the common theme in this thread is Roadies. You have 'em and your choices are very different to when you don't.

No roadies here. Just bandmates. The people I play with understand that I love my tone on my Traynor + Ampeg 810 and they like how it fits the overall sound, so they help me load, unload and carry it around when needed.

Which is also why I have no problems helping my guitarist carry his Marshall amp, 412 cab, his guitars, my drummer's cymbals, kit, whatever... everybody helps out.

If any of you guys have band mates that refuse to help you with your gear, then... wow.

 

[higain617]

Jaco
View attachment 3609664

I like the amps, but that stage attire makes shorts and white New Balance look like a tux.