Go big or go home

[the zombywoof]

You would think differently if you were dragging around a Hammond B-3 and a pair of 122s Leslies. Total weight close to 1/2 ton counting bench and pedals. If it wasn’t for my 15 lb. Nord clonewheel I’d be sitting home wearing my hernia belt.....


Jake[

With the growing number of threads directed towards going direct and lightweight amps I think it’s about time for a thread which brings us back to some punch-you-in-the-chest reality and why some of us will never let go of the heavy iron.

So why full-sized stage amps when running into a FOH system can get you just as loud? In my opinion, the answer to this question is what separates the boys from the men with regards to your sound. Somewhere along the way, the lure of minimalist setups has fooled guitarist and bassists into giving up their beloved stage possessions… namely their amplifiers. In some cases, giving them up totally, and in others trading them for stage monitor versions of their amplifiers. This was done under the thought that ‘it sounds just as good out front’. Well guess what? No, no it doesn’t. It doesn’t in a small bar, and it doesn’t in a concert venue. And, your live playing might take a dive as well. First off, just like cymbals and snare drums real amplifiers reverberate off the walls and ceiling – even in large venues. These reflections come at you in a multi-directional fashion and carry not only realistic characteristics of the amp but also the ‘color’ of the venue which you are playing in. And, it sounds awesome! This akin to a real band vs. a DJ or band in a box. Sound which is originated or largely amplified by the FOH is generally coming from isolated points left and right. And, this is done without the benefit of studio processing where mic placement, reverb, delay and compression have been strategically used to give the illusion of reality. Combine the sound projection coming from a glorified stereo with a flat mix and you are no aural competition for the real deal. Most people may not be able to put their finger on it, but they can tell the sound is kind of… meh, lacking excitement. Well, how about full-sized ‘light weight’ amps? I’m sorry to say, but there is a certain ‘heft’ to the sound of the old school gear. For many reasons it’s the heavy components in transformers, speakers, and cabinets that just can’t be beat when you want the best sound without compromise. In the end, I am certainly not telling anyone what gear you should use – use whatever makes you happy. But, if you’d like some straight talk on how to go directly to some world class sound, go for classic gear. Gear that is sized right for your stage and venue when using the FOH for reinforcement – not your primary sound source. Lean towards tube or solid-state amps with reputations of being work horses. You don’t need to over do it with speaker cabinets, but, bring enough so that your cabinets have plenty of head room to support your sound. There’s a reason why so many touring bass players use 2 4x10’s or an 8x10. Do you need that? No. Will it give you amazing authority, touch sensitivity and headroom? Absolutely. Gear that is undersized takes away your feel. Again, none of this is necessary. But if you’ve reached the point where you and your band just need a great sound than hopefully this helps you find your way. Lastly, while hefty amps and speaker cabinets do play and sound great in all sized venues, they can ruin your hearing and give you tinnitus. This is some serious stuff my brothers. Regardless of your amp size, you should have controlled stage volume and use in ears. Rock on!

 

[the zombywoof]

You are the man! never put your sound in someone elses control completely! Ive heard clock radios that sound better than some of these bands with practice amps on stage.

 

[Doctor Intrepid]

I decided to 'go big' just recently. I'm not a pro, though, but just a older dude with some money fulfilling a lifelong desire to have a bigger rig. We only jam twice a month, so it's not so bad to move it.

 

[tshapiro]

@tshapiro that totally needed to be said. Love your post!

But then I saw that tiny LH1000 on top of your 410s... I mean, come on man, you can do better than that! I could probably fit that in my backpack!

Here's my setup - I use a Traynor Mono Block B and a early '90's Ampeg 810.
(Also got an Acoustic 370, but it needs some repairs at the moment)

I lug this rig wherever I play - indoors, outdoors, smaller venues, larger venues, cafes, a squat in East Berlin, five stories up with no elevator... doesn't matter. I carry all of my stuff by myself, can slide the 810 into the van without any problems, and one extra bandmate is enough to carry it safely. All the stories about Ampeg fridges being some extremely heavy and unwieldy monsters that require some sort of superhuman powers or a full crew of roadies to carry around are greatly exaggerated.

Cheers to all big rig users!

Man, my LH is like 32 lbs

 

[the zombywoof]

You are the man! never put your sound in someone elses control completely! Ive heard clock radios that sound better than some of these bands with practice amps on stage.

this was meant for tshapiro

 

[tshapiro]

this was meant for tshapiro

Right on my brother!

 

[Rip Van Dan]

View attachment 3609658
Cool big rig

And GREAT bass player!

 

[SteveC]

To each their own.
I have always used as small an amp as I could get away with for as long as I can remember. My current amp is a Genzler MG350 Tall 12. I use it for small gigs, practice, etc. It sounds amazing and is plenty loud.

For my other gigs (church and a cover band) we are all DI/IEM. Silent stage. Doesn't bother me a bit. My sound doesn't really depend on any particular amp. I love bringing a Nano with my tuner, DI and IEM box. Done. We have our own sound system and sound guy so we get th esame mix all the time. Would the drummer like real drums? Sure. But we all are making sacrifices for the greater good. We can have our mix at any volume. Inside, outside, whatever the customer wants. We get compliments all the time on our sound.

If people want to haul big stuff around, that's fine. Many of the examples pictured in this thread are of pro players who haven't moved or set up their own gear for years. If I had a roadie, sure, I'd use whatever the person who hired me wanted or allowed. Many tours want a clean stage. No amps, IEM's, etc.

Enjoy your big rigs.

 

[fjbass78]

I love bringing my 8-10 out, but mostly i use my Accugroove Tri 1-12. But if i can roll this cab out of my truck and right right into the venue, I'm down with that. Here I have my GK MB500 pushing it.

 

[Panek]

Man, my LH is like 32 lbs

That's tiny and light, definitely backpack material! Hah!

Just kiddin', of course. Love me some Hartkes!

 

[Rip Van Dan]

I'm running a Hartke LH1000 into 2 Markbass 410's with the older heavy black speakers. I tried everything under the sun and this setup just nails it for me

View attachment 3609714

Did you mean everything under the Sunn (0))))....

 

[Nevada Pete]

You would think differently if you were dragging around a Hammond B-3 and a pair of 122s Leslies. Total weight close to 1/2 ton counting bench and pedals. If it wasn’t for my 15 lb. Nord clonewheel I’d be sitting home wearing my hernia belt.....


Jake

Yup! Back in the day a guy named Charlie Button (who among other things went on to win a technical Grammy for his ClearCom intercom system) used to modify the old Leslie 122's, and most of the groups we provided sound for at the big shows had a pare of Charlie Button specials. Charlie would replace the woofer with a JBL D or E 140 and swap out the compression driver for a JBL 2482. THAT made them play much louder, but also made them heavier still! Even stock they're awkward to move on account of the weight distribution, and it's real easy to crush your fingers when stacking one Leslie on top of the other. Especially after Charlie got done with them! Saw stagehands crush their fingers even after they were just warned to be careful. Good ol' days.

Back then there was never a problem getting everybody on stage to pitch in to bring in a Hammond B3. As long as it had the proper dolly. Even with four big guys that was always a job, though, and the excessive weight made it potentially dangerous. Even after being warned I saw stagehands get their feet under the dolly and crush their toes, or worse, when we set the B3 down. Still, it was one of those things you just did, same as for a baby grand. Unspoken rule. Especially with the B3, one guy had to count off so everybody lifted and put it down simultaneously, or disaster could strike! Lot of respect for those Hammond's and Leslie's. But the point is, as usual, kids today have it too easy!

 

[tshapiro]

Did you mean everything under the Sunn (0))))....

I had a nice Sunn 1x10 1x15 cab back in the 80's

 

[tshapiro]

That's tiny and light, definitely backpack material! Hah!

Just kiddin', of course. Love me some Hartkes!

Actually, it's the first non-tube amp I've used in a long time. But, I just loved the sound and power.

 

[jerry]

How many gigs a year do the manly-men only use manly-men rigs do a year? Asking for a friend.

 

[Pings Bass]

eh, for loud stuff, sure, if you want all the dirty reflections and room imbalances and phase cancellations and muddy stage and FOH sound and tiresome load-ins/load-outs, go for it. If you're playing music where it's important to hear every note, ditch the amp.

 

[tshapiro]

Yup! Back in the day a guy named Charlie Button (who among other things went on to win a technical Grammy for his ClearCom intercom system) used to modify the old Leslie 122's, and most of the groups we provided sound for at the big shows had a pare of Charlie Button specials. Charlie would replace the woofer with a JBL D or E 140 and swap out the compression driver for a JBL 2482. THAT made them play much louder, but also made them heavier still! Even stock they're awkward to move on account of the weight distribution, and it's real easy to crush your fingers when stacking one one Leslie on top of the other. Especially after Charlie got done with them! Saw stagehands crush their fingers even after they were just warned to be careful. Good ol' days.

Back then there was never a problem getting everybody on stage to pitch in to bring in a Hammond B3. As long as it had the proper dolly. Even with four big guys that was always a job, though, and the excessive weight made it potentially dangerous. Even after being warned I saw stagehands get their feet under the dolly and crush their toes, or worse, when we set the B3 down. Still, it was one of those things you just did, same as for a baby grand. Unspoken rule. Especially with the B3, one guy had to count off so everybody lifted and put it down simultaneously, or disaster could strike! Lot of respect for those Hammond's and Leslie's. But the point is, as usual, kids today have it too easy!

I've been lucky in that my band members have always been happy to help lug in a full sized PA (towers and bins) as well as my bass rig. But, I will only let those people who are passionate about the sound and the show into my band. But again, I realize that I have been very fortunate to have played with like minded people.

 

[drumvsbass]

Am I down with the big stuff? You bet! Can I use it anymore on most of my gigs? Absolutely not!

Ah Jimmy with the truthiest of truths.

I cannot bear to part with my SVT (my pet dragon). I feel like I would loose perspective on what the 'realest' thing is. And when it's real it's super real. Any other amp just feels like a snapshot or a plastic recreation of the real thing in comparison. Every bassist should know what that feeling is. Go and play any other large super amp you want, but, I feel that the 'SVT' thing is as necessary to familiarize yourself with as a bassist as P-basses with flats. The way I explain it is (if you have a sound tech who is down with it) you can be hilariously too loud and not be told to turn down because it sounds so good. Yet, other amps can be half as loud and be super fatiguing, even with a kind of a similar tone, and the sound man will be on you.

There isn't a single gig that I could possibly use it on, yet if there is ever a gig that I can remotely justify it...

Otherwise, for corporate and cover gigs I am in that lazy bass player club who is totally down with bringing his BDDI, running it on phantom with a wedge. My tear down time is unplugging an XLR cord and putting my bass, di, and cable in a bag.

Yet I do reminisce for the days when I brought smaug to my jazz trio's coffee shop gig...

 

[tshapiro]

eh, for loud stuff, sure, if you want all the dirty reflections and room imbalances and phase cancellations and muddy stage and FOH sound and tiresome load-ins/load-outs, go for it. If you're playing music where it's important to hear every note, ditch the amp.

My brother, I'm sure you have plenty of experience. But, getting a good live sound with real amps is half the fun!

 

[Rip Van Dan]

Seems like the common theme in this thread is Roadies. You have 'em and your choices are very different to when you don't.

Had roadies move my gear once. The were actually friends of the guitar player and not "real" roadies. They were just playing the part so they could get into the Fancy gig on Hollywood Blvd. we were playing back in 1975. I had a Standel piggy back amp at the time with covers. Covers were fairly thin and I have always been very careful with my gear.

It was loaded in the back of a station wagon. The back seat was down and those piano hinges were sticking up. I told them to be careful to lift my amp over those hinges because I was afraid the piano hinge would snag on my amp covers and tear it. They pulled the amp out just great with no tears. After we finished playing that Corporate gig on the top floor of the Hotel on Hollywood, they took our gear back down and put my amp back in the station wagon. I didn't think much about it until I took it back out of the car at home. They had just set it on the tailgate and shoved. It ripped the hell out of the covers to the point they were no longer usable. And of course by then Standel was long gone and there were no covers available for replacements.

Of course, if these were real "roadies", it wouldn't have been a problem. Moral of the story is don't let your guitarist's friends come to a gig as your roadie. They are not concerned about your gear like a real one would be. All they really want to do is get in for free.