Going Direct

[Beyer160]

It's the same concept with keyboards ; would you mike the keyboard"s player amp instead of passing him through a DI ?

If the amp was part of his sound (like a Leslie) I would, and have on many occasions. I used to work with a band whose keyboard player played through two dimed guitar amps- our rider had NO DIs ON KEYBOARDS!!! MICS ONLY!!! in big, bold letters on the input list and stage plot. Half the time I still had to go make the stage techs mic the things anyway.

The sound of the patches he created will be a lot closer to reality with a DI than micking his amp...... Same with bass. My sound is a lot closer to reality in a DI than through a "no highs , way too much low mids" bass amp.

I think you mean "same with my bass"- that certainly doesn't hold true for all players, but if it works for you, great. If I was working PA for your band and you asked me to use a DI instead of miking the cabinet, I'd say "sure, no problem".

What the instrument sounds like in "reality" is irrelevant- it's the end result that matters. A Les Paul into a DI may sound more like the unamplified guitar, but that's not what most rock guitarists want- they want that crunchy, bandpass limited sound from the amp. Some bass players are like that, too.

I don't play Jazz , I have a RCF ART310A amp , would you mike it ?

As I said before I wouldn't normally mic a biamped rig like that (or any cab with a horn), and in the end I'd do whatever the player wanted anyway.

I was a little sloppy with the verbiage in my pervious post, though- when I said "I'd never use a DI on a rock player", what I meant was "I'd never use a DI on a rock player as a first resort".

 

[Beyer160]

]
I feel running direct is like a lot of other aspects of bass playing. There is a learning curve, and the more info and exprience you get, the easier dealing with it becomes.

A agree- you need good technique to sound good through a DI, and that comes with practice. However, you can't replicate the sound of a raging SVT with a DI and technique alone, no matter how good you are.

 

[GregShadoan]

When I do sound, always a DI and a mic. When I play, at least for the time that I can remember, its always been a DI and a mic. It may be that, most of the sound people around here know me as a sound person as well, so they just do it for me.

I have never had a bass player tell me, "hey you are not getting MY sound" out of that combonation. At least not yet.

I rarely use alot of EQ on a bass, except for HPF.

I also am flexable about mic selection. If a bass player knows what mic he likes for "his/her" sound I am more than willing to accomidate them. Most don't care.

 

[SwamiRob]

I'm on the 'what players want' boat too, some people consider an amplifier to be part of their sound others don't, although what Beyer said about guitars is a pretty strong argument. It's all about taste though, and a good soundguy should be able to manage with a mic either way, I'd never say there was a right and wrong in terms of sound.

What really irritates me though is alot of soundguys in the UK seem to not understand that micing bass is a viable option. I think I know 2 maybe 3 soundguys ever that have miced my bass, even when I ask them they usually come up with some ridiculous excuse, or do the stereotypical soundguy thing of just shrugging you off without really saying anything relevant.

 

[bongomania]

What the instrument sounds like in "reality" is irrelevant- it's the end result that matters. A Les Paul into a DI may sound more like the unamplified guitar, but that's not what most rock guitarists want- they want that crunchy, bandpass limited sound from the amp. Some bass players are like that, too.

This bears repeating. Most of us play electric instruments which have only minimal acoustic tone, where a large percentage of the sound depends on the system of amplification. If that weren't true then why do many bassists still put so much effort into lugging huge heavy tube amps around, or trying to get more "fatness" or "warmth" out of the available micro amps?

There are some players for whom a straight DI tone is "right", and also many players for whom a straight DI tone is boring, anemic, and lacking in the dirty, fat, heavy, punchy quality of certain miked amps.

 

[SwamiRob]

There are some players for whom a straight DI tone is "right", and also many players for whom a straight DI tone is boring, anemic, and lacking in the dirty, fat, heavy, punchy quality of certain miked amps.

Heheheh, I wonder which you prefer?

 

[fokof]

If the amp was part of his sound (like a Leslie) I would, and have on many occasions. I used to work with a band whose keyboard player played through two dimed guitar amps- our rider had NO DIs ON KEYBOARDS!!! MICS ONLY!!! in big, bold letters on the input list and stage plot. Half the time I still had to go make the stage techs mic the things anyway.

It would be very hard to put a DI between older B3 and Leslies , with those multi-pins cables.....
There is also the Rhodes & Fender twin combo , no DI can replace that of course , and a lot of other examples...

I'd get a rock band with that SVT sound , of course I'll go for a Mike.....

But for me , when I'm on stage as a bass player , I practiced so hard to have a good tone direct .......

 

[JimmyM]

But for me , when I'm on stage as a bass player , I practiced so hard to have a good tone direct .......

Nothing wrong with that, just like there's nothing wrong with micing an amp.

 

[kirkm24]

Nothing wrong with that, just like there's nothing wrong with micing an amp.

Some sound guys might disagree with you on mic'ing an amp. Every sound guy I know will only run bass direct.

 

[DavePlaysBass]

I have been running a DI signal post EQ / effects for years. And it seems to work. My EBS HD350 head has overdrive and compression along with a nice EQ that I do consider part of my sound. I have played my Sadowsky straight thru an Avalon U5 and then I have put my EBS head in between and that seems to get me my sound to the front of the house.

And at one of the churchs it is all IEM. I loathe it but I am being assimilated. It's right up there with helmets and condoms. Probably a different topic but the IEM is what lacks my sound. The front of the house is actually a lot better than the IEM.

 

[JimmyM]

Some sound guys might disagree with you on mic'ing an amp. Every sound guy I know will only run bass direct.

Well those sound guys can kiss my butt. I am in charge of the sound guy on my gigs, and if I want a mic, I get a mic.

I did get hoodwinked a couple weeks ago, though. I set up a mic, and the FOH guy asked if he could hook up a DI and blend the signals. I said sure, but I'd rather you just use the mic more than the DI because it's my sound. Came to find out he turned my mic completely off for the show. I banged into it and moved it, and it was completely off. Even the monitor guy thought it was BS that he did that. I let it go, but after the show I let the FOH guy know that it wasn't appreciated and that I would never let him do that again.

 

[SwamiRob]

I seriously can't remember the last big rock gig that I went to where the cab wasn't miced, I really don't think heavy music lends itself well to DIing unless it's very clean processed kinda sounding stuff like Tool or something. Only big rock gigs I've seen unmiced recently all sounded like they were using Sansamp Bass Drivers.

I did get hoodwinked a couple weeks ago, though. I set up a mic, and the FOH guy asked if he could hook up a DI and blend the signals. I said sure, but I'd rather you just use the mic more than the DI because it's my sound. Came to find out he turned my mic completely off for the show. I banged into it and moved it, and it was completely off. Even the monitor guy thought it was BS that he did that. I let it go, but after the show I let the FOH guy know that it wasn't appreciated and that I would never let him do that again.

That's really not on at all, soundguys can really take the piss sometimes, I wouldn't mind if they gave an explination, but there's so much stuff they'll just blindly ignore you on. It might be almost remotely fair enough if they were really busy at the gig I play, but at the vast majority of the gigs I play soundguys have more then enough spare time.

 

[Fnord Explorer]

I don't like miking the amp because then I'm always fighting with the soundguy about volume stuff. I adjust things on the fly a lot from my amp and soundmen typically don't care for that, so I bring a DI that's in my pedalboard and run that into the FOH. Nothing about that signal changes other than switching effects so all my noodling with the amp onstage only affects the stage volume.


And when I DID run sound and the bass player was insistent on having the cab miked instead and he started cranking his volume up or EQing massive amounts of bass I just put him in quietland and let his amp provide the FOH.

 

[SwamiRob]

I don't like miking the amp because then I'm always fighting with the soundguy about volume stuff. I adjust things on the fly a lot from my amp and soundmen typically don't care for that, so I bring a DI that's in my pedalboard and run that into the FOH. Nothing about that signal changes other than switching effects so all my noodling with the amp onstage only affects the stage volume.

And when I DID run sound and the bass player was insistent on having the cab miked instead and he started cranking his volume up or EQing massive amounts of bass I just put him in quietland and let his amp provide the FOH.

Yeah I played alot with my amp, but that was due to it being a pile of crap, when I got a rig I was happy with I left it as it was the whole gig most of the time unless it genuinely needed to go up or down.

With the volume and EQing thing, plenty of guitarists do that too anyway.

 

[Gearhead17]

I have just about given up on asking for a mic at gigs. I always use just one Eden 410XLT and make sure to point it towards my bandmates, not the crowd. I even mix my distortion pedals so when I switch them on, it is a small change in volume. I even set my amp at one tone for the entire show and just let the natural sound of my bass's do the tone. I don't even boost the tone knobs whatsoever on my bass's live.

Still, they won't put a mic in front of my rig. I had two people mic me though - one guy was freaked out when I said I wanted to use distortion. So he quickly miced me! Then I played out in this pathetic little bar out in Crestwood, IL, and they miced me without even asking me! Sweet! I had a bass solo during one of the songs and jumped out into the crowd and I actually got to hear my bass through the PA - growly, punchy and had some major low end. Awesome!

I would love to give the sound man a post EQ signal off of my 400+ and a miced tone of my 410XLT. Still, I am afraid to argue with soundguys though, they can easily mute me through the PA system or make me sound terrible just because I asked them to actually work..... I have found many soundguys don't want to do their job or anything more than what they usually do for bands. It really is a shame.

I once brought out my Audix D4 mic (really captures tone almost the way you hear it and has very little proximity effect) and asked the soundguy to use the signal off of it and he got all bent out of shape because he had never heard of Audix and did not know a thing about it and blah blah blah.... I just gave up on it.

I like the sound of my Mesa 400+ head and direct output on that head is right off the speaker jack - so I get the post-EQ signal and that tube growl straight to the board. Maybe I will just be happy with that! Still, the sound of my Eden 410XLT and Mesa 400+ is killer.....

 

[stanger503]

ok this worked out awesome for me....i actually came to this part of the forum to start this exact thread....awesome. ok my issue is the last show i was at i had to go direct...i absolutely cant stand it and my drummer thinks this is the only way to go...whats the point honestly in having a rig if your just gonna di everything???? ok out of the way....any how the di we were using did not give me ANY sound going into my head...so i couldnt even use my cab as a monitor....had to stop the show 2 songs in because i was playing blind and have the sound guy, whom was not even at the board come back and turn me onto my 4 ft tall monitor(yes 4 ft.....really????), and wutd the @$$hole do, CRAAAANKEED the bass and walked away, all in all ruining most of the show and sound for the other guys and the crowd. we still put on the best show but holy ef was i pissed off. so my question is, i could get a sansamp di 3 channel and maybe get a decent sound going direct with that, but what kind of mic do you guys recommend to mic your cab because we have our own front end so ill use it then but ill also use it when i get a sound guy like the a hole we had and tell him straight up i want it mic'd

 

[Gearhead17]

sansamp di 3 channel - I suggest trying one out first and see if you like it. I don't favor those units for their tendency to eat away the midrange of my bass's tone.

As for mics - again, it's what you think sounds good. I prefer the Audix D4 because it captures guitar and bass rigs very accurately when close miced (right on the speaker grill). There is no massive low end increase from having the mic right on the speaker and the growl, punch, and clarity of my bass rig just comes through beautifully. You should check out the frequency response of any mic you will chose. If there is a sharp drop off after 70hz, you can't rely on that mic to capture your low end too well and so on...

Some of those kick drum mics are great for bass rigs - just be aware at what a mic will do to your bass tone. Some kick drum mics will eat away your midrange of your tone while pumping the highs and lows to the ceiling. Great for a kick drum, but if you want people to hear your notes live, might want to look elsewhere.

As you can see, I am a midrange nutcase. I want to be heard AND felt at shows. If people can't hear the midrange tone of the bass - the stuff a bassist plays live will be hard to recognize. Us bass players can recognize it, but the crowd will have a hard time figuring out what he is really doing. Other than adding rumble to the background.

In the end though, any mic can sound good if the soundguy knows what he is doing. Whether or not the tone is to your liking, is up to you.

 

[1954bassman]

A agree- you need good technique to sound good through a DI, and that comes with practice. However, you can't replicate the sound of a raging SVT with a DI and technique alone, no matter how good you are.

True

 

[SwamiRob]

I once brought out my Audix D4 mic (really captures tone almost the way you hear it and has very little proximity effect) and asked the soundguy to use the signal off of it and he got all bent out of shape because he had never heard of Audix and did not know a thing about it and blah blah blah.... I just gave up on it.

Hahahah, I'm not the slightest bit elitist, but a soundguy that hasn't heard of Audix really shouldn't be telling you what is or isn't the right thing to do with live sound, unless perhaps he's learnt live sound in some godforsaken communist country where every mic is made by the same manufacturer.

Anyway, people should be alot more hardarse with soundguys, I'm still pretty soft but I'm getting there. Kinda funny the amount of funny looks I've got for asking them to "just stick a 58 on it" seeming to make out like it was the most backward thing you could ever do to a bass. Can't wait to get a PR40 though, if the whole developed to capture explosion sounds in films thing doesn't work then I don't know what will, probably a hell of alot of lying and blagging from me

 

[1954bassman]

There are some players for whom a straight DI tone is "right", and also many players for whom a straight DI tone is boring, anemic, and lacking in the dirty, fat, heavy, punchy quality of certain miked amps.

Makes good sense.