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Got fired from my church gig...

#261
Pat C. said:
The outright lying that you noted is incredible, but some people respond that way when they are backed into a corner. A church situation should be the easiest place to admit these types of errors and find the support needed to get redeemed and improve things, but unfortunately that's not always the case..
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Its also the easiest place to lie your ass off, because being a MM in a Christian church, other church people will be reliably giving you the benefit of the doubt. Pastor desperately wants to believe him, otherwise he hired a liar and made a mistake. The loving and acceptance they're expected to show other members makes it very hard to confront someone and call them a bald faced liar to their face. They tend to crave fellowship and good will, want to believe the best in people, especially people selected to leadership positions in their church, so a loud shouting match/argument is to be avoided at all cost. Conflict is bad, lets all be nice. And the MM is taking advantage of all that and pushing his luck. He's probably gotten away with it before, and figures your word against his, nobody will have the stones to call him a liar, let alone have anything concrete to back it up and prove it. Its all "he said, he said". He can get away with saying anything, pretty much.

Randy
 
#262
bradjonesbass said:
I think God deserves our best and that includes the best sound/light/staging/etc... we can afford. Just because these churches are spending money on those things doesn't mean they aren't helping the poor; in fact, many of them draw large numbers of people specifically because they enjoy the worship (whether that's a pure motive or not is another thread). Those people give their offerings which in many cases allows the church to do even bigger things as far as giving to the poor than they would have been able to do otherwise. I'll just use our church as an example. Because of our facilities and equipment we are able to put on a huge Christmas Eve production every year, which draws a lot of people not normally associated with our church. Every year we take up an offering of which 100% goes to a specific NFP organization either locally or overseas. There have been years that offering was over $150K. That's on top of the enormous amount of resources - time and money - we give away to needy people all year long.

Sometimes I think people pick bones about sound equipment, buildings and other things just because they like to complain or try to make a point. However, if you look at what many churches are doing - I'll use Willow Creek and Saddleback specifically - they are funding huge programs for the poor here and overseas. A lot of that is due to drawing so many people which is due to both the teaching and the production aspect of the music on Sundays, both of which are made relevant to the modern world by being modern stylistically. Bach was contemporary in his time, Luther was contemporary in his time, the Wesley brothers were contemporary in their time, yet some people believe the modern church should be stuck in the 16th Century as regards music, sound and lighting, as well as preaching style. There's nothing wrong with staying relevant to your day and age, in fact, I think it's what Jesus and Paul would teach us to do. The Psalmist said to sing a new song to the Lord and play skillfully, not play 500 year old songs poorly.
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+1 My point in a more focused syntax! Bravo! :hyper:
 
#263
Brad Johnson said:
This could very well be it. Quite often he mentioned that he thought the problem in the monitor the guitarist and I shared was due to a "bad cable". I explained that the variety of symptoms we had and the fact that they only occured on Sundays and then only when someone was seated at the console probably wasn't a coincidence. That bad cable would have to, on various occassions, make the guitar have malfunctions independent of the bass and vice versa... or both. All while screwing up other things in our mix.

I had swapped out direct boxes, monitors and everything except the lead to the snake (he wouldn't let me). Used several didfferent instruments, passive and active. They have over a dozen mics in the choir area going to another snake so I suggested we connect a DI to one of those cables that wasn't going to one of the racked mic preamps (some mics did, some didn't), set that channel identical to how ours was set (EQ, gains and pad) and see what happened. He said he didn't want to do that and lose the settings for that channel. I reminded his that was a digital board with memory.

I didn't say that to make him look stupid.
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I bet he's been MM before, in smaller churches with all self taught people that don't know music, and he got used to BSing his way through. Running into someone who knows what they were talking about was intolerable, he could have been exposed as a fraud at any moment. Given enough time, it was inevitable anyway, and faced with sound problems in the board that won't respond to his guesses, it was imminent. Calls for desperate measures to get you out pronto.

You may think my words are harsh, but fraud is entirely fair and accurate. What else would you call someone who lies through their teeth for their own aggrandizement while claiming to be a Christian?

Good luck, I hope the church gives you back your IEMs soon... ;)

Randy
 
#265
Brad Johnson said:
I didn't say that to make him look stupid.
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It's possible you make him look stupid just by being competent. Sounds crazy, but I've been in that situation. My guess is most people have been in that situation at some point in their lives. Just by knowing something you can easily highlight someone else's ignorance.

Just look at all the things you though of with the sound system that would've helped if they were checked out thoroughly, or at least the sound guy's capabilities were properly vetted. You may be missing the big point there - the MM didn't think of any of this! He probably didn't have enough knowledge of the situation to even consider them. Of course he didn't want you to check the snake - it was another thing he possibly missed. It doesn't matter that it was probably the soundguy's fault (PICNIC - problem in chair, not in console), all of these things (in addition to the musical issues) added up to a whole bunch of things that the MM should know about and take care of, but couldn't or didn't.

I don't doubt for one second your intent was to help, and that your tone and approach was tactful. But it's likely you still managed to shine a spotlight on the MM's inadequacies.

And (I can't believe this), I actually agree with Mr. Airhead. The explanation for your firing was all in your original post. It wasn't reasonable, or rational, or logical, or even in the church's bests interests...but it makes sense in the context of how your actions were perceived by the MM, and even the pastor.

I'm not saying it was a good move on their part, in fact it sounds like they not only lost a good bass player, but lost the one person "inside" who would've been able to help them solve their problems because you had the ability to come up with (or at least search for) solutions, and you were willing to speak up about them. Which might have been your downfall.

The whole thing is a damned shame. Pun intended.
 
#266
aws1963 said:
Well, I attend one of the "MEGA" churches and have not found anything about in the Bible that says worship music has to be a particular genre! "Make a joyful noise....." I believe what's "joyful" is up to the beholder. I prefer to leave feeling more fired up than when I arrived.

Some say there's no place for Guitars and Drums in church. Well, If we want to stay on the original course, guess organs and piano's are out and we all need to grab a harp and lute!

Brad's experience is a common one. Different expectations by different skill levels. Nothing wrong with striving for excellence. Think thats a Biblical concept!

Come to Northern California Brad. We allow amps on stage! Regular rehearsals and have fun! :bassist:

One of our more "lively" Christmas Eve services below. Not for the faint of heart! :eek:



BTW, some of you familiar with the CCM scene will recognize our worship leader! :D
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Thanks. I'm pretty rooted here in Maryland.
:cool:

Here's the basic thing about the amp... I didn't want an amp. I simply wanted to be able to hear myself and the people I was playing with clearly. That's all. It made no difference to me how that was accomplished... just accomplish it. The way they chose (hi-tech board + novice soundguy) was not working.
 
#267
bradjonesbass said:
I think God deserves our best and that includes the best sound/light/staging/etc... we can afford.
Click to expand...

Not just you, apparently a lot of people think this way.

Just because these churches are spending money on those things doesn't mean they aren't helping the poor; in fact, many of them draw large numbers of people specifically because they enjoy the worship (whether that's a pure motive or not is another thread).
Click to expand...

That would be a long thread, and probably out of bounds as a TB topic. If the moderators gave the OK I'd love to discuss it in another thread.

Because of our facilities and equipment we are able to put on a huge Christmas Eve production every year, which draws a lot of people not normally associated with our church....There have been years that offering was over $150K...

Sometimes I think people pick bones about sound equipment, buildings and other things just because they like to complain or try to make a point. However, if you look at what many churches are doing - I'll use Willow Creek and Saddleback specifically - they are funding huge programs for the poor here and overseas.

A lot of that is due to drawing so many people which is due to both the teaching and the production aspect of the music on Sundays, both of which are made relevant to the modern world by being modern stylistically. Bach was contemporary in his time, Luther was contemporary in his time, the Wesley brothers were contemporary in their time, yet some people believe the modern church should be stuck in the 16th Century as regards music, sound and lighting, as well as preaching style. There's nothing wrong with staying relevant to your day and age, in fact, I think it's what Jesus and Paul would teach us to do. The Psalmist said to sing a new song to the Lord and play skillfully, not play 500 year old songs poorly.
Click to expand...
I'm fine with contemporary music. In fact, I'm fine with anyone worshipping in any way they see fit. But putting on a production requiring the technical capabilities typically reserved for Broadway shows is beyond what should be required to draw people to faith. JMO.

I've got more to say, but it's probably not all appropriate for this forum.
 
#268
steveksux said:
I bet he's been MM before, in smaller churches with all self taught people that don't know music, and he got used to BSing his way through. Running into someone who knows what they were talking about was intolerable, he could have been exposed as a fraud at any moment. Given enough time, it was inevitable anyway, and faced with sound problems in the board that won't respond to his guesses, it was imminent. Calls for desperate measures to get you out pronto.

You may think my words are harsh, but fraud is entirely fair and accurate. What else would you call someone who lies through their teeth for their own aggrandizement while claiming to be a Christian?

Good luck, I hope the church gives you back your IEMs soon... ;)

Randy
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:D
 
#271
west*coast*bass said:
Brad, I read all 14 pages. I'm not sure other here have actually READ what you wrote (:rollno:), but I did. Great story...it just goes to show that even fine, upstanding, church going people can be nasty backstabbing sons of bitches. But you are right, a gig is a gig and no gig is immune from a-holes.

Their loss!
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Thanks, Mark. Granted, it was a lot of words.
:D
 
#273
Pat C. said:
I'm fine with contemporary music. In fact, I'm fine with anyone worshipping in any way they see fit. But putting on a production requiring the technical capabilities typically reserved for Broadway shows is beyond what should be required to draw people to faith. JMO.

I've got more to say, but it's probably not all appropriate for this forum.
Click to expand...

A. It's not THAT good :)

B. It's not about drawing people to faith, but honoring God with our talents. We have very talented sound and light people and for them to do their task skillfully requires equipment up to the task. Much like playing gospel bass requires me to have a bass that is up to that task, which generally means a 5 or 6 string (or my 7), proper setup and proper training/skills development in slap style - not to mention enough power for the subs to fill a room that holds 1000 people with enough bass to adequately present the bass heavy gospel style we play.
 
#274
$90,000 for an anniversary party? the worst part is when you mentioned it wasn't a mega church; i thought that it would have to be for that kind of money to be thrown around. even then...
hey brad; sounds like it was time to go; doors close for a reason. besides, you don't want to attend and be under the authority of a church that irresponsibly spends that much money on things other than meeting basic human need.
remember- when you stand for something, you won't fall for anything...
 
#276
first off, im lol at will kellys post above!! lol LMAO classic!

ok i would tell u get away from those idiots. some of the most horrible evil dumb people in the world are religious / church band people. you have been warned !!!
i want to add that a very known and popular church in miami stole from my guitar player friend. he recorded some amazing tunes ( i heard them ) for them which they sell and profit from, and gave him nothing. watch out for them crooks AKA : hypochristians... false "prophet"ting
 
#277
Brad Johnson said:
In all seriousness I don't have a clue where you're coming from. I don't understand your quoting methodology, I don't understand why you quoted what you did. I don't have any idea what fundraising has to do with this or in ear monitors. I'm drawing a blank. I think the idea that I commited some sort of gig suicide is simply goofy. Particularly in the context of what you quoted, out of context.

And nothing you continue to write seems to clear any of this up. So I'll just remain in the dark as far as you.

Thanks. I guess we're done.
:)
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Brad,
FWIW, I've observed his participation in a couple other threads.
Pretty much everybody is having trouble following his train (wreck) of thought. :eyebrow:
 
#278
i wanted to add this i forgot to say this ::: i got fired from a cover rock gig i was in 3 nights per week for my income, so couple months later, i got a text and found out their guitars were stolen. so you see, bad karma will get the bad people !!!! =)
 
#280
Wow. Sounds like you really got fired because you not only knew more about music than the MM, but acted in a professional manner and spoke up when others did not also act in a professional manner. As you were all getting paid, the whole group should have been acting like pros... complete with practices, knowing the material, putting out charts for new material, etc. I know folks who play in pretty small churches (less than 500 members) who manage to meet those standards even without being paid...

Gotta second the thought that the MM found your suggestions, no matter how tactful, as 'gotchas.' I've run across that attitude on far too many occasions - people who seem to think that any suggestions as to improving things are actually personal attacks on their own abilities, knowledge, ways of doing things, etc. Also run into more than my share of folks whose first (and often only) impulse when they run into 'difficult' situations is to lie through their teeth, no matter who or what it hurts...

The thing is, too many musos run into similar situations in all sorts of band situations. Some people seem to think church bands should somehow be different; obviously from the many comments of others who have been in your situation, it isn't. I think it hurts more when it happens in a church band situation, though; as you do tend to expect more even when you tell yourself you shouldn't.

Sorry you've run into this and had to quite your church gig as a result. At least you've been able to keep a sense of humor about a situation that is stressful at best. Hope you find a better group to play with soon!
 

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