• TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
    Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
    Join freeLog in
    Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.

Greenboy vs. Barefaced vs. Audiokinesis

Which should I buy?

  • Greenboy F112

    Votes: 41 32.8%
  • Barefaced Super Compact

    Votes: 49 39.2%
  • Audiokinesis Thunderchild 12

    Votes: 35 28.0%

  • Total voters
    125
@puff father has 2xF112's and a Berg AE410. He said the lows and dispersion of 1 F112 was immediately apparent when comparing the two.
I tame the lows into my F212 with a HPF.

Looking at the three options you're considering, I'd go for the first one I could get a deal on. From what I've read, Duke may take the prize for customer service. The pluggable ports are pretty cool too. Sort of a mechanical HPF. I'm looking forward to a F212 2x Hathor 112 shootout soon. (@nutdog, @10cc)
 
My Markbass rig is really loud. I want a cab that has more pronounced lows than my MB cab. Plus I want a cab with better dispersion. My 410 cab sounds different everywhere on the stage. I am looking for a one cab solution. I do not want to buy 2 cabs. I have no experience with audiokinesis. How good does the thunderchild 12 sound? If I was to get one, I would get the 8ohm version. Does anyone know how it compares to a Barefaced or Greenboy?

First off, I would probably be looking at the Barefaced Big Baby, not the Super Compact if a full range cab is your goal. Judging from what I heard of the Super Twin, the upper range extension of the SC just won't compare to the others on your list. But if you use distortion a lot that just might be a big advantage. Both greenboy and Duke make other cabs that would work well in that case though. And if you use a modeler for distortion, then both the TC and FEARLESS cabs can work very well.

My experience with the TC112 is mostly with the v1 four ohm model, and I haven't been around the F112 enough to make a confident comparison. I could get a lot of the same sounds out of my old fEArful 12/6 and the TC112 fairly easily though. I think the form factors and how valuable the switching and porting options are to you might be the deciding factor.

All three of the designers are friends of mine and make uniformly great products as far as I'm concerned. Best of luck, whatever you decide.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Marial
Not the answer you are looking for so consider this random rambling. I used a Kappalight loaded LDS 1212/6/1 and my conclusions are a properly designed 212 (high end other brands mentioned here) will get close or exceed the output of a decent 410 but you better bring the watts man. I used 1200 watts on my cab and outdoors you better believe I needed it. Don't expect to push a F212 with 500 watts because these cabs are a little power hungry. (Barefaced, I don't know anything) I use a Bergantino HD112 stack (2) and that gets loud, (like a 410) but I don't expect ginormous fEarful lows out of it. The perception of loudness vs. frequency response is a thing to grapple.
 
In the best interest of the OP, I believe I may change my vote for his benefit.

At last call, he is solely limited to just the 3 cabs mentioned. End of story.

The fact that he plays a (4-string) Precision with flats tells me that no tweeter is required. Add to that, his 500 watts @ 8 ohms is perhaps best served by a sensitive cab and I will vote for the Barefaced Super Compact.

Again, I suggest this purely to make the most of the above conditions, keeping in mind that SPLs will still not meet/exceed his 410. I believe that goal is not possible with his amp and any of the single cabinet selections.

Cheers!
 
Regarding the comments made about horn loading equal turbocharging, unless the horn is long and with a large mouth area the low frequency extension will be seriously compromised. This is why there are no successful commercial folded horns on the market that are really capable of the low frequency extension that a well designed ported cabinet of equal size can do.

The other really serious drawback is frequency response, folded horn cabinets really suffer in this regard as well.

They will get loud, with less power than a ported cabinet over a narrower bandwidth, if that's all you care about. I think most players here are well past that benchmark?
 
Duke's cabs are the perfect combination of tone/weight/output. The thunderchild series are a flexible solution with a bent towards the transparent output . The new Hathor 1505 is a beast from what I'm hearing from others. I have the 1203 and love the little giant. The Hathor line is focused on a bass friendly muscular palette.

May I suggest the Audio Kinesis Hathor 1505. Weight in the low 30's, switchable 4/8 ohm to get all out of your amp. Arguably louder than the other cabs you listed. Pound for pound, probably the hardest hitter on the market with a lot of excellent engineered options included. I have one on loan, and Duke could probably be persuaded to let you check it out

I am a devout AudioKinesis user. I replaced two Bugera 15" Ampeg HE clones with two H1203's. The H1203 has an incredible following. I am excited about using my AK cabs for two 4th of July outdoor shows. I have a Gallien Krueger MB500 to push them to 500 watts at 4ohms. I'm very confident that I will have NO problem being heard over 2 guitarists, a drummer, conga player and singer.

From what I've read, the difference between the H1203 and TC112-- the H1203 is voice more like a vintage SVT or Peavey Made in USA cab from the 80's (to my ears) and the TC112 is voiced closer to the fEarful/fEarless cabs. The TC112 performs more high fidelity. The Hathor series is move voiced for rock and roll or what Duke refers to as that rock and roll "growly" tone. At low volume I can emulate the classic sound of an overdriven STV 810 by turning one of the switches to down position. However, with the use of the two switches, the H series are capable of getting clean and transparent tone also.

The AK H1505 which I think Duke will be producing was tested and is getting rave reviews. @shrigg has been testing it and he swears by it. In his estimation with a powerful enough head the H1505 WILL easily replace and outperform a 410 cab.

While the OP isn't concerned about highs that much, the H1203 had a midrange speaker that has ports to disperse the higher signal is four different directions. A unique design I love. However, Something very subjective to me is that the AK community is pretty friendly and informative. One of the reasons I bought an AK. Some very smart designers and users hang out there and I've learned so much from them and especially Duke. He's very friendly and answers questions from thread members on a regular basis.

Ok, my sales pitch is over. You'll probably be happy with any of your choices. Good luck and let us know what you choose! :thumbsup:
 
Last edited:
Audiokinesis Thunderchild 12- These look cool, but I have not heard much about these cabs.

Thank you for including my cab in your list. Actually I think my Hathor 1203 would probably be a better candidate for your situation, it's voiced more like a traditional bass cab, whereas the Thunderchild series comes closer to a "hifi" voicing.

I want a cab with better dispersion. My 410 cab sounds different everywhere on the stage.

Dispersion is an area where my Hathor 1203 outperforms my Thunderchild 112.

IMO all cabs should list displacement, but only Barefaced does. You'll get all sorts of replies why manufacturers don't list displacement, but they don't hold water.

I'm guessing that comment is alluding to Greenboy and me, as we're the other two manufacturers included in the original post.

Greenboy and I use stock Eminence Kappalite woofers whose displacement is very easy to look up. Barefaced uses a custom Kappalite variant and Alex does not use the same yardstick to measure displacement that Eminence uses. So if we really want to make a true apples-to-apples comparison, we would have to look at how the displacement figures were generated for the woofers in quesion. There are different equations and protocols for arriving at a figure for x-max (as well as other specifications), some more optimistic than others.

I have no doubt that Greenboy and Barefaced both make excellent cabinets.

One thing to be aware of with the long-excursion uberwoofers that Greenboy, Alex and I use, is that they probably will not fart out even when pushed into their thermal danger zone, so you need to pay closer attention to whether the cab is starting to compress or sound muddy. Those are indications of a hot voice coil. These woofers can handle a lot of power, but they are not indestructible.

Duke has begun offering some electronic trickery that allows the AK to toggle between 8 and 4 ohms.

Accuswitch?

I don't know the technical details of what was in the Accuswitch.

The key piece of background information needed before my explanation will make sense is, an "8 ohm" woofer can have a voice coil DC resistance down around 5 ohms. Eminence has several "8 ohm" woofers that work well for bass guitar which have a DC resistance very close to 5.0 ohms. I asked the engineer who designed these woofers if anyone had ever complained that two such woofers in parallel (resulting in a DC resistance down around 2.5 ohms) presented too difficult a load for a 4-ohm rated amp. He said no, never.

Several of my cabs use what might be called a "high 4 ohms" woofer, including the latest version of the Thunderchild 112 (but not the Hathor 1203). By adding a small amount of high-power-handling series resistance (by-passable via a switch), it is possible to make this sort of woofer appear to be a "low 8 ohms" woofer, as far as the load the amplifier sees. The penalty is a roughly 1 dB loss of efficiency relative to the 4 ohm woofer all by itself. The theoretical benefit would be that, in "8 ohm" mode, the cab can be paired with another 8-ohm cab and driven by a 4-ohm-rated amp for gigs where a single cab isn't enough. Imo the secret to this being practical is, starting out with a "high 4 ohms" woofer to begin with; if too much series resistance has to be added before the cab can qualify as an "8 ohm" load, the losses will be too great.

So the actual difference in the cab's effective DC resistance is much less than what's implied by calling it a "4/8 ohm" switch, which is why I always put it in quotes. It's more like a "3.9/5.05 ohms" switch.

The added series resistance also modifies the woofer's T/S parameters a little bit, changing the low-end characteristics slightly. The cabs with the "4/8 ohm" switch also have multiple pluggable ports to help tighten the low end back up if needed.
 
Last edited:
I'm guessing that comment is alluding to Greenboy and me, as we're the other two manufacturers included in the original post. Greenboy and I use stock Eminence Kappalite woofers whose displacement is very easy to look up.
The comment was aimed at the mass market manufacturers, not you and Greenboy.
Alex does not use the same yardstick to measure displacement that Eminence uses.
That I did not know, and if true it's disturbing. Still, he compares his current speaker displacement to stock Eminence models, so you'd think he uses the same 10% THD that Eminence does. Without input from Alex it wouldn't be fair to comment further. Does he still come here?
I don't know the technical details of what was in the Accuswitch.
He put a capacitor in series with one driver, which was bypassed when the switch was flipped. If you measured the DCR with the cap in the circuit it blocked the meter from seeing that driver, so by flipping the switch you'd read either one driver or both in parallel. Of course the impedance was the same either way, 4 ohms. Either he didn't know the difference between resistance and impedance, making him an incompetent, or he did, making him a charlatan. We'll never know, once confronted with the evidence he never spoke of it again as far as I know.

I asked the engineer who designed these woofers if anyone had ever complained that two such woofers in parallel (resulting in a DC resistance down around 2.5 ohms) presented too difficult a load for a 4-ohm rated amp. He said no, never.
Of course not, because amps are designed to be able to work with the minimum load that they'd see, which is usually the DCR, and with a nominal 4 ohm woofer or a parallel pair of 8 ohm woofers that would be around 2.5 ohms DCR. DCR is always going to be lower than nominal impedance, usually by a factor of 0.6 to 0.7. I don't care for the resistor idea, considering not only the insertion loss but also the very high power capacity it would need, and the potential for burning it out. I don't see the need for being able to go from 8 to 4 ohm, unless the amp is severely undersized and you need to get every last bit out of whatever voltage swing it can deliver.
 
The comment was aimed at the mass market manufacturers, not you and Greenboy.

Thanks for clarifying, and sorry for misunderstanding.

That I did not know, and if true it's disturbing. Still, he compares his current speaker displacement to stock Eminence models, so you'd think he uses the same 10% THD that Eminence does. Without input from Alex it wouldn't be fair to comment further.

In a thread last year Alex claimed that his woofer has 10% more displacement than mine. I asked him how he measured x-max. He replied "We use voice coil overhang plus magnetic gap / 4..."

I plugged the figures for the stock 3012LF into Alex's equation and got: 545.5 cm^2 x (7.78 mm + (9.1 mm/4)) = 548.5 cubic centimeters. Alex claims 550 cubic centimeters of displacement for his woofer. As you can see, if we calculate the displacement of my stock Kappalite 3012LF using his equation, we get almost exactly 550 cubic centimeters.

I don't care for the resistor idea, considering not only the insertion loss but also the very high power capacity it would need, and the potential for burning it out. I don't see the need for being able to go from 8 to 4 ohm, unless the amp is severely undersized and you need to get every last bit out of whatever voltage swing it can deliver.

The cabinet would have to see about 1.7 kilowatts before the resistors would see their rated wattage, and by then the magic smoke will have long since escaped from the voice coil.

If someone doesn't want the resistors, no problem - they can be omitted, saving about one pound in weight and lowering the price a bit as well.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: punchdrunk
Great thread. I will be giving my Hathor 1203 its maiden voyage on my 4th of July gig which will be outdoors. I will stack it on the already insanely loud and clear Thunderchild 112 that I have had and loved for a year. This is by far my favorite cab I have ever owned. It effortlessly keeps up with my loud rock band when indoors all by itself and does so with bottom end clarity that defies belief for 25 lbs. It is super clear, and my amp is an Eden wt 550 which is also super clear, but I vintage up the tone quite a bit with pedals if I want. This cab really lets you hear the tone of your bass and I love that. I have been able to get the sound in my head more than with any other rig I have ever owned, although I do miss my GK Mb700 sometimes. Especially for upright it is just so great, brings your tone to life. I got the Hathor to add a little more rock and roll to the mix and I have read that they pair well together. So my plug is for the AK stuff as the form factor and weight make load in such a breeze. I love being able to carry my cab with one hand, sling my amp bag over my shoulder and my bass in the other hand. I'm all about one trip. Does this cab beat a 8x10? Not hardly, let's not deceive ourselves. But I think my TC112 and Hathor stack just might, or at least get close enough for me. I haven't used a barefaced before or a greenboy to offer a direct comparison. But you can't go wrong with Duke's stuff, and he is a pleasure to work with. My only regret is that I no longer have my composite TC115 that I sold pre-divorce to try to stave off said divorce (long, sad and stupid story) However, my post divorce 112 x2 setup MORE than makes up for it.
 
Great thread. I will be giving my Hathor 1203 its maiden voyage on my 4th of July gig which will be outdoors. I will stack it on the already insanely loud and clear Thunderchild 112 that I have had and loved for a year. This is by far my favorite cab I have ever owned. It effortlessly keeps up with my loud rock band when indoors all by itself and does so with bottom end clarity that defies belief for 25 lbs. It is super clear, and my amp is an Eden wt 550 which is also super clear, but I vintage up the tone quite a bit with pedals if I want. This cab really lets you hear the tone of your bass and I love that. I have been able to get the sound in my head more than with any other rig I have ever owned, although I do miss my GK Mb700 sometimes. Especially for upright it is just so great, brings your tone to life. I got the Hathor to add a little more rock and roll to the mix and I have read that they pair well together. So my plug is for the AK stuff as the form factor and weight make load in such a breeze. I love being able to carry my cab with one hand, sling my amp bag over my shoulder and my bass in the other hand. I'm all about one trip. Does this cab beat a 8x10? Not hardly, let's not deceive ourselves. But I think my TC112 and Hathor stack just might, or at least get close enough for me. I haven't used a barefaced before or a greenboy to offer a direct comparison. But you can't go wrong with Duke's stuff, and he is a pleasure to work with. My only regret is that I no longer have my composite TC115 that I sold pre-divorce to try to stave off said divorce (long, sad and stupid story) However, my post divorce 112 x2 setup MORE than makes up for it.

Hear here! Much better put than my conversation. Hey! We're both doing 4th shows! :thumbsup:

While I try to learn and appreciate the technical specs of cabs and I admire how Duke and others can "throw down" the specs, it's your kind of description that grabs my attention. Players in the field pushing these cabs to test their capabilities.

This is a great discussion. I hope @alexclaber can drop by to contribute to the discussion. I really did like the concept of the Barefaced cabs, before I bought my AK it was down to Duke vs. Alex. No technical details swayed me, just the great discussions by satisfied users. Who knows.. I might still buy a small Barefaced down the road...
 
Regarding the comments made about horn loading equal turbocharging, unless the horn is long and with a large mouth area the low frequency extension will be seriously compromised. This is why there are no successful commercial folded horns on the market that are really capable of the low frequency extension that a well designed ported cabinet of equal size can do.

The other really serious drawback is frequency response, folded horn cabinets really suffer in this regard as well.

They will get loud, with less power than a ported cabinet over a narrower bandwidth, if that's all you care about. I think most players here are well past that benchmark?
A friend of mine had a BFM Jack 12 - VERY LOUD, plenty of mids, & pretty lacking otherwise, but hey, not saying they still sound musical - depending on your tone goals.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Jools4001
As an F112 owner, my only concern is that your LMT 800 may not be able to push the single F112 loud enough to replace your existing 410.

This purchase may be your gateway drug to a larger amp or twin cabs. ;)

Cheers!

tb_f1123.jpg
This is exactly the cab configuration I use, running the power section of a Walter Woods stereo head, bridged. With one cab it's 700 watts into 8 ohms, and easily replaces a 4x10. With both cabs 1000 watts into 4 ohms. I don't know what a LMT 800 puts into an 8-ohm load, but I'm considering getting a Jule Amps M2500 (2500 watts !) for use with my Monique and the two cabs. There's a reason these cabs are called Fearless.
 
  • Like
Reactions: puff father

Latest posts