Greenboy vs. Barefaced vs. Audiokinesis

[Dave Hill]

I think a better use of the performance data gives the (educated) user an idea of what is a REASONABLE expectation of the performance the speaker is capable of (SPL versus low frequency extension), and how reliable it's likely to be when driven at different power levels. It is not very useful in describing voicing, or overdriven character however as this is probably some of the most misunderstood aspects of a speaker's performance. For this, there's no substitute to listening to one or trusting a reliable information source (ie. another qualified player or even a store that has well respected, trustworthy players on staff).

Remember, everybody has an opinion but some opinions are more often more accurate than others.

Agree.

 

[alaskaleftybass]

Well I talked to Duke. Based on our conversation, I am going with Audiokinesis. Duke explained to me in detail about the advantages and disadvantages of each cab that I picked. He stated that the Hathor 1203 would suit me best. So I am getting one. Can't wait to get it!

I would like to welcome you to AK! I hope you get acquainted with the AudioKinesis thread. They are an excellent group of people, and we often have very entertaining discussions. Duke drops by often and chimes in and educates us, and sometimes hints at new exciting things to come. I am not afraid to ask anything with the guys, they are non judgmental and genuinely helpful.

When it came down to choosing a cab, I think I said earlier in this thread, it came down to the personal discussion I was able to have with @DukeLeJeune over what cab would suit my needs best. He kept in touch and sent me a tracking number for delivery. Now I'm anxiously awaiting a second H1203 in the mail for a weekend performance celebrating 4th of July.

I was seriously considering the Barefaced, but a few things swayed me away. For one, I couldn't get a response out of Alex on my questions, and second, very trivial, I didn't like the speaker cab designs as well as the AK cabs, which to me look very modern industrial. Super clean. I liked how they were taller rather than short and wide. I think I probably would have been happy with Barefaced but I'll never know because the AK H1203 produces such a sweet spot of tone for me and weighs in at 25 pounds.

Once again, welcome to the AK community!

 

[alaskaleftybass]

Great thread. I will be giving my Hathor 1203 its maiden voyage on my 4th of July gig which will be outdoors. I will stack it on the already insanely loud and clear Thunderchild 112 that I have had and loved for a year. This is by far my favorite cab I have ever owned. It effortlessly keeps up with my loud rock band when indoors all by itself and does so with bottom end clarity that defies belief for 25 lbs. It is super clear, and my amp is an Eden wt 550 which is also super clear, but I vintage up the tone quite a bit with pedals if I want. This cab really lets you hear the tone of your bass and I love that.

Congrats on your second AK cab! I wish that I would have bought the TC112 but my OCD side insists on having matching cabs! I've read on the AK thread users combining the two cabs and they're very happy with the massive output the TC112 adds to the mix.

 

[engedi1]

I think a better use of the performance data gives the (educated) user an idea of what is a REASONABLE expectation of the performance the speaker is capable of (SPL versus low frequency extension), and how reliable it's likely to be when driven at different power levels. It is not very useful in describing voicing, or overdriven character however as this is probably some of the most misunderstood aspects of a speaker's performance. For this, there's no substitute to listening to one or trusting a reliable information source (ie. another qualified player or even a store that has well respected, trustworthy players on staff).

Remember, everybody has an opinion but some opinions are more often more accurate than others.

User testimony was enough to get me to fork over the cash and try an AK out. I was not disappointed. My real point is that stats don't really communicate how a Cab sounds. I suppose one could identify certain frequency curbs as being undesirable, and I do recall that the extremely flat freq curve of the AK Thunderchild was one of the factors that peaked my interest, especially for upright. But to be honest there is only so much education that I am even interested in obtaining to be honest. I know that what most of you HIGHLY educated types are trying to convey is tone, and power, and other things that are difficult to convey, and that are subjective, in technical terms, but for most of us, the most useful information come from user experience. And music is highly subjective after all. You are saying that you can learn these things and use them to predict a speaker's capability, and perhaps one day I will. But I know what works for me and in the end I am thrilled with the lightweight powerful choices for bass cabinets out there these days. It's a great time to be a bass player.

 

[engedi1]

Congrats on your second AK cab! I wish that I would have bought the TC112 but my OCD side insists on having matching cabs! I've read on the AK thread users combining the two cabs and they're very happy with the massive output the TC112 adds to the mix.

Thanks! It was a long time in coming. One thing I wanted to add is that the customer experience is a big deal and Duke is responsive to email and I can't tell you how much I enjoy being able to get the guy designing and make the cab on the other end of the email or even phone call. Customer service like that makes me believe in a product and communicates that he will also be there should there ever be a problem. That's an x factor that is hard to quantify but is nevertheless a big deal to me and perhaps to many customers.

 

[Handyman]

Well I talked to Duke. Based on our conversation, I am going with Audiokinesis. Duke explained to me in detail about the advantages and disadvantages of each cab that I picked. He stated that the Hathor 1203 would suit me best. So I am getting one. Can't wait to get it!

Excellent choice, sir!

I have the 1203's big brother, and couldn't be happier. I've never been so impressed by a bass cab in my life - I've sold off all my others had have zero GAS.

Well, GAS for speaker cabs, at least.

 

[engedi1]

Excellent choice, sir!

I have the 1203's big brother, and couldn't be happier. I've never been so impressed by a bass cab in my life - I've sold off all my others had have zero GAS.

Well, GAS for speaker cabs, at least.

Truth! My speakercab gas is a long gone. Some little part of me wants the Hathor 1855 but I am suppressing it!

 

[agedhorse]

But to be honest there is only so much education that I am even interested in obtaining to be honest. I know that what most of you HIGHLY educated types are trying to convey is tone, and power, and other things that are difficult to convey, and that are subjective, in technical terms, but for most of us, the most useful information come from user experience. And music is highly subjective after all. You are saying that you can learn these things and use them to predict a speaker's capability, and perhaps one day I will. But I know what works for me and in the end I am thrilled with the lightweight powerful choices for bass cabinets out there these days. It's a great time to be a bass player.

YES, this is exactly why I have been hesitant to include such detailed specs, because it does require spending a lot of time learning and understanding, which may not be productive to the average player. It was, in part, the bitching by some who felt that detailed specs were absolutely necessary to choose a bass cabinet that is responsible for the added published data (I always generate this data during the design so it's not like it didn't exist or was a wild ass guess). In the end, I just can't win either way I suppose

 

[engedi1]

YES, this is exactly why I have been hesitant to include such detailed specs, because it does require spending a lot of time learning and understanding, which may not be productive to the average player. It was, in part, the bitching by some who felt that detailed specs were absolutely necessary to choose a bass cabinet that is responsible for the added published data (I always generate this data during the design so it's not like it didn't exist or was a wild ass guess). In the end, I just can't win either way I suppose

Yeah. I am glad overall that you guys work so hard to publish specs as it will satisfy a certain type of player. Personally, I have always loved MESA gear and never had a louder cab than my old 4x10 powerhouse. In the end it was only due to the form factor, that thing was HUGE and weighed 100 lbs and I couldn't get it in and out of my truck by myself. And while I don't have cab gas right now, my gas for a Subway 900 is gaining pressure...

 

[Tim1]

As an overseas buyer (New Zealand) a huge factor in my choosing Barefaced was the ease of shipping/importing. The Barefaced website lists prices in most major currencies with shipping included, the whole process was ridiculously fast and easy, and I received my Four 10 cab under a week after ordering it literally from the other side of the world. Plus the price compared very favourably against buying a major name manufacturer's 410 from a local shop.

 

[Rick James]

My vision isn't what it used to be, so maybe it's me, but all I see is excuses, no charts. I guess Mesa can't afford this:
Invalid Link Removed

 

[John D Harris]

My vision isn't what it used to be, so maybe it's me, but all I see is excuses, no charts. I guess Mesa can't afford this:
Invalid Link Removed

???!!!???

 

[agedhorse]

My vision isn't what it used to be, so maybe it's me, but all I see is excuses, no charts. I guess Mesa can't afford this:
Invalid Link Removed

Pretty disingenuous and downright insulting comment Rick. I provided no excuses and plenty of data as well as some explanation. Perhaps you do not remember when I posted a detailed response curve from a product by a previous company I designed for? Very detailed, very complete, including polars, and all I got were dargtuments about what the plots even meant from folks who pretended they understood but from their comments clearly they did not. (p.s. dB is not shorthand for frequency... one misunderstanding that stuck in my mind) A complete waste of time, as generating ACCURATE plots (anechoic, without boundaries) is very time consuming and really doesn't correspond with how the speaker will perform (especially voicing-wise) in a variety of acoustic environments. Direct comparisons need to be made on an equal basis... either identical acoustic environment (impractical), or an anechoic environment (costly and time consuming).

BTW, all of the plots I have seen by other manufacturers are not anechoic and include environmental influence (which is inaccurate). I am sure that nobody else in this industry goes to as much detail in the design and analysis/data gathering as I do, and we have published more real, accurate data than anybody else. Why isn't anybody else stepping up to the plate Rick? Is it because they don't want to go down this road with folks who are looking for an argument? Actually, I totally understand their perspective... no good deed goes unpunished.

So, Take the F3, F6 and F10 of the Jack cabinet (you can read it off of the plot when your vision "improves") and compare to the published F3, F6 and F10 of our cabinets, or with ANY OTHER cabinet that provides this data, and see what the LF performance differences are. ALL OF THE NECESSARY DATA IS PROVIDED IN NUMERICAL FORM.

 

[Al Kraft]

I am not an audio engineer, but I am an engineer in the aviation and aerospace business (I started in the late 70's) . When it comes to bass cabinets, I find specifications interesting and actually useful in terms of giving me insight into the robustness of a design (e.g. where thermal and mechanical maximum ratings fall relative to each other) or whether I can run just one cab or perhaps two with a particular amp. Specifications are also useful to me in getting a sense of what to expect from a cab relative to efficiency (i.e. amount of power I might need to drive it) and perhaps give me hint as to where a cab's tonal voicing might be shy or very full.

However, I find technical/design specifications virtually useless in terms of knowing how a cab will actually perform for me - hearing is the acid test. I recognize that's a bit of a sweeping generalization, but in my experience in design work, an air vehicle either flies well from a pilot's perspective or it doesn't. Showing a test pilot who said the aircraft felt unstable in some part of the flight envelope a bunch of detailed design data/charts/graphs/CFD or wind tunnel test results/etc. that says he or she shouldn't have experienced that instability isn't going to change the test pilot's experience.

Now, all that design data and all those technical details will likely be very useful once the test data is analyzed and the engineers can figure out what in the design would have manifested itself as an instability in actual flight. This iterative design and test process and how it's conducted is where I learn a lot about how well designed something really is. As I recall from some of the early D-800/Subway posts, AgedHorse provided what I would characterize as unique insight and transparency into that process. He answered questions about design and test iterations, shared technical findings and really exposed the details of the trade space and how Mesa worked it. That has much more value to me than a polar plot from an anechoic chamber. I've never played a gig in an anechoic chamber...a really good studio is as close as I come (and even that falls far short of what I consider true anechoic chamber work).

I think Mesa does an excellent job of sharing the kind of "technical information", which when combined with what my ears tell me, provides more than sufficient information to be a well informed consumer. Just to be clear, I think the three manufacturers who are the subject of this thread also do a fine job of providing technical details and even providing some free education in their field of expertise and on their product design approaches. I have learned a great deal from reading their posts and sincerely appreciate all that they share with us, and that especially includes the Mesa folks.

 

[engedi1]

Well said Al. Mesa is always of the highest quality. I still wish I had my MPulse 600. There was a great amp. I am pretty sure my next amp will be a Subway 900, unless I hit the lottery and can score a Strategy. I would also like to try the new lightweight Mesa cabs. I am sure they rock as well.

 

[chris_b]

I don't need to know how a bridge was built to know it's safe to drive over. Then again, I don't care how many Elephants it'll support, you'll never get me on that glass thing that hangs out over the side of the Grand Canyon.

I get that the tech specs are an insight into how something works but I am not an engineer so there are no brownie points for me to know this stuff. I'm obviously happy that the guys doing the design know it all, but I have no interest. I hear what I'm buying or at a pinch, read reviews by people I trust and know have the same aims as me.

Engineers make it it a fantastic time for me to be a bass player.

 

[sratas]

I think it's the same as motorcycles. All engine data and performance measurements don't tell the whole story about how good and enjoyable a ride can be.
There are factors that go beyond numbers and charts. In music, There are no numbers for feel, authoritative, tridimensional, detail, growly etc etc.

I AM a science dependent man, at work as a medical doctor, but in other domains I feel more confident basing all my opinion on personal actual experience

 

[Rick James]

So, Take the F3, F6 and F10 of the Jack cabinet (you can read it off of the plot when your vision "improves") and compare to the published F3, F6 and F10 of our cabinets, or with ANY OTHER cabinet that provides this data, and see what the LF performance differences are. ALL OF THE NECESSARY DATA IS PROVIDED IN NUMERICAL FORM.

Being an engineer I could do just that, but does the average player even know what those terms mean? Sorry, but you want it both ways. You criticise the Jack based on the measured response chart and nothing else, so where the Jack is concerned the chart tells all. But where your own product is concerned a chart is deemed irrelevent.
Since I do know what f3, f6 and f10 means I also am aware that without a measured SPL chart to provide a baseline they're meaningless, just as meaningless as a calculated maximum SPL.
Outdoors away from buildings is an anechoic environment.
As for what you posted when with GB, as I recall you showed a screen shot of the low frequency predicted response from Eminence Designer software with the high frequency response from an Eminence data sheet.

I get it, you don't want to show actual measured response of your products, and most of your customers don't care. But if your not going to show yours then don't talk down your competitors products based only on what they're not afraid to show.

 

[nutdog]

Really?

 

[popgadget]

Since I do know what f3, f6 and f10 means I also am aware that without a measured SPL chart to provide a baseline they're meaningless

I think I'm missing the point here. It would appear that the Mesa data is provided, but in a tabular form rather than charted.
I will say that IMHO comparing cabs by published specs is not very realistic due to the wildly varying methodology used to obtain them. To the OP's question, all of the cabs mentioned are better than average. As a Greenboy builder, I'm likely to be biased, so I'm not going to make a recommendation other than to make a significant effort to listen to them all, preferably side by side. I have, and there are differences between them, but they're just different flavors of good.