Grumpy FOH guys!

[unbridled]

Might try the kick-back idea! Thanks for that!

and...
that is exactly the language and tone that I always have to take with FOH guys when sound checking. A lot are bigger divas than the turn!!!

Cool! You'll get there! It's tough working with FOH guys you don't know that well. It's even tougher now because a lot of venues don't have dedicated monitor boards and mix mons from the front.

We are also at a loss because we spend years trying to find "our tone" and then we just put it in the hands of someone we may or may not know.

Do you have a "mole" you can put in the crowd who has ears you trust? It's easier to give up control of your sound if someone you trust says it sounds good.

I understand wanting to "feel" your bass, but could it also be a case of where the other instruments also have to hot of a stage volume?

Let us know how the kick-back works.

 

[will33]

Being the grumpy old SOB that I am, my stock respose to that sound guy is, more often than not:

"Provide me the monitor volume I need and I'll unplug the amp. If you can't do that, take me out of the mix and I'll cover the room from stage. Give me the thumb up / down on the level you want."

It's not my fault you bought 6 subs for the mains and your monitor set up consists of 3 cheap 12" wedges.

On the other hand, I don't feel the need to be the hammer of Thor. I just need to hear the note.

Although that attitude probably won't get this guy anywhere....I like it. There are plenty of so-called "soundguys"...hacks more like, that don't know what the hell they're doing. You say bass, they think the subs that they blew a pantload on and don't know how to use. These are the ones at the bars/smaller clubs I see all the time that'll get a mediocre level setting and then walk away drinking and talking to women. Heaven help you if they actually decide to turn some knobs...it gets even worse.

Point is, if they're good, do what they say, then within those limits, do what you can to get a workable stage sound for yourself and your band.

If they're not good, you're not going to sound good period.

Spending a lot of money and talking a big game does not a soundguy make.

 

[staccatogrowl]

I was playing a venue where FOH man was unhappy, with good reason. He measured 90 db avg of rehearsal stage volume from his board location from guitar, bass, and drums. (And you know everyone turns up as the evening progresses.) He had guitar and bass stop playing. He measured 78 db avg from drums. He was looking for about 92 db avg from entire group.

Singers, horns, keyboard, and percussion had not even started to play.

Amps were nixed for DIs. Monitors were nixed for Avioms. Band members got to set their own mix. FOH man got to set house mix.

Every band member was happy. Audience was happy. FOH man was happy.

Am I missing something?

As a sidebar: FOH man says that guitars and bass only know how to turn up to balance stage volume . . . they never turn down.

 

[JimmyM]

I'm fiortunate to be in a position to where I can boss around most soundmen, and the ones I can't seem to want to work with me through every cockamamie idea I have. But as Uncle Ben says, with great power comes great responsibility. I get what I want mostly because I am respectful of the room and the band and the PA. I'm not up there to whack myself off. I'm there to let everyone have a good time and I get the money...well, what little money there is.

 

[billfitzmaurice]

Is there anything that I can do before I put my foot through the guitarist cab, leave a poo in the drummers snare drum or seriously mame the FOH guy

What's probably going on is that boundary cancellations where you're standing are rendering the lows and midbass hard for you to hear, but farther out where the FOH is those cancellations aren't happening and your low end and midbass is too loud compared to the mids and highs. That won't pose a problem for a good engineer, he'll just high pass your channel strip, and run only higher frequencies through the PA as required to get a good balance. If he's not knowledgeable enough to do so, clue him in.

 

[staccatogrowl]

Sidebar 2: You don't need a wireless or long cord to hear yourself in the house. Go to the FOH man and ask if you can plug your di directly into the board.

 

[JimmyM]

What's probably going on is that boundary cancellations where you're standing are rendering the lows and midbass hard for you to hear, but farther out where the FOH is those cancellations aren't happening and your low end and midbass is too loud compared to the mids and highs. That won't pose a problem for a good engineer, he'll just high pass your channel strip, and run only higher frequencies through the PA as required to get a good balance. If he's not knowledgeable enough to do so, clue him in.

And then turn down

 

[Medford Bassman]

I used to use big rigs "back in the day" when we didn't have FOH except an old Shure Musicmaster PA for vocals. The stage volume was the FOH.

But I now use great FOH (we bring our own). I don't want to throw off the FOH because it sounds so good. I usually use my NEOX 112 with the tilt back and put it either in front or to the side of me. I hear all the bass I want and I don't affect the FOH.

 

[billfitzmaurice]

And then turn down

Maybe, maybe not. Of course he shouldn't be running higher than what he needs to hear himself, but on a bad stage boundary cancellations can make it necessary for him to crank it to hear himself and then it might be too much out front, in the low end anyway. A good FOH man will know how to get around the deficiencies of the room, a bad one won't know either the cause or the cure other than telling him to turn down.
Guitar'd players are usually the brunt of soundman ire, insisting that they have to crank an 8x12 stack 'to get my tone, man' instead of using a 1x12 to get the same tone at reasonable levels.

 

[georgestrings]

Yep, you're right...you will be corrected. This is bunk. If it were true, headphones wouldn't work. If the sound is stronger 15 feet away, it's because of boundary reflections in the room. Unfortunately, a lot of pro audio people still believe this nonsense and keep saying it as gospel. So it's not your fault.

You are also wrong that 115 cabs aren't great for smaller venues. It's a matter of taste. I often use 115 cabs on gigs big and small, and they are always great (at least mine are). What's not so great, at least to me, is combining them with a 410. The 410 drowns out the 115, plus it can cause phasing issues. A lot of people do it and like it, but I have always hated combining speakers like that. Either 10"s or 15"s for me, never both.

I agree 100% with all of the above... IME, if a 115 isn't enough, pairing it with another 15 works well - also, if a 410 isn't enough, adding a 210 to it works better than adding a 115...



- georgestrings

 

[georgestrings]

I was playing a venue where FOH man was unhappy, with good reason. He measured 90 db avg of rehearsal stage volume from his board location from guitar, bass, and drums. (And you know everyone turns up as the evening progresses.) He had guitar and bass stop playing. He measured 78 db avg from drums. He was looking for about 92 db avg from entire group.

Singers, horns, keyboard, and percussion had not even started to play.

Amps were nixed for DIs. Monitors were nixed for Avioms. Band members got to set their own mix. FOH man got to set house mix.

Every band member was happy. Audience was happy. FOH man was happy.

Am I missing something?

As a sidebar: FOH man says that guitars and bass only know how to turn up to balance stage volume . . . they never turn down.

I see a couple of problems with this:

- 1st off, not too many guitarists will care for the idea of DI only...

- 2nd, you're then at the mercy of someone else for what you need to hear, to play your instrument...



- georgestrings

 

[jaywa]

IAs a sidebar: FOH man says that guitars and bass only know how to turn up to balance stage volume . . . they never turn down.

Unfortunately, in 95% of the cases he's right.

Same deal for EQ. Heaven forbid any frequencies should ever get CUT, only boosted.

 

[xk49w]

Wouldn't a fair middle ground be to have a small amp on stage to give you the necessary "feel" and combine that with ear-ins so as to blast your eardrums as hard as you want without screwing with everything else?

Fine until your ears sizzle day and night. Then you'll have other concerns.

The OP seems to me like a guy that likes to play loud, and for what ever reason, regardless. I suspect this is the root cause of the problem and it is not an easy one to fix.

With FOH sound support you are going to sound good or bad at the whim of the sound man. You can make things worse with loud stage volume. Please take this into consideration when you think about how loud you need to play on stage in these venues.

 

[PBass101]

Of course I'd never suggest using ear-in monitors at levels that are dangerous, but if that's what somebody wants and doing so makes it easier for FOH to get a good mix without fighting overzealous stage volumes, then it's the musician's problem.

A good FOH man will know how to get around the deficiencies of the room, a bad one won't know either the cause or the cure other than telling him to turn down.

Isn't there, like, some kind of schooling or certification somebody has to go through before they can start playing "sound guy" for bands at paying venues?

 

[AMJBASS]

My solution has generally been to cut a lot of low end out of my tone. I try to get a tight punchy sound on stage that allows me to keep the volume in check without too much bleed out front(or on the stage).

 

[billfitzmaurice]

Isn't there, like, some kind of schooling or certification somebody has to go through before they can start playing "sound guy" for bands at paying venues?

If only. Most sound men start off as hangers-on who don't play but dig the scene, so they learn how to wire gear together. Knowing how to plug everything in is a long way from being an audio engineer, but all that's required to get a gig with a band or a club is to know more about gear than the band or club owner does.

 

[unclejane]

My solution has generally been to cut a lot of low end out of my tone. I try to get a tight punchy sound on stage that allows me to keep the volume in check without too much bleed out front(or on the stage).

+1...

This was what I ended up doing myself. Nothing mudded up the sound on stage for me more than that awsome fundamental I worked so hard for years and years to get out of my cabs .

Towards the end of my gigging with my last band I usually just borrowed a small amp that could get loud enough with a good midbassy tone for me to hear on stage and then I didn't give a zhit what the sound folks did with me otherwise. They could make me a wall of mud or cut me completely out, I didn't care - long as I could hear me and the rest of the band onstage I was ok.

The small amp was nice because it didn't bleed offstage and the rest of the guys could hear me as well. The guitarist didn't care if he heard me or not so that simplified things to just me and the drummer having to hear each other for the most part .

If I were gigging now I'd just use my GK 4x10 either behind me, or in front of me facing me as a monitor. Earplugs of at least 25db would be mandatory for me also, really helps hear the mix when the volume is at a sane level at my ears....

I'd give the line out to the sound man and let him have at it.....

LS

 

[JimmyM]

Isn't there, like, some kind of schooling or certification somebody has to go through before they can start playing "sound guy" for bands at paying venues?

There is schooling for it, but it's ridiculously expensive and it's debatable if you come out being able to mix sound any better than when you went in. Usually the hanger-on method or the musician-who-bought-a-PA method are what gets people into running sound for money.

 

[fokof]

That won't pose a problem for a good engineer, he'll just high pass your channel strip, and run only higher frequencies through the PA as required to get a good balance. If he's not knowledgeable enough to do so, clue him in.

If he's a good engineer , he'll need to put a delay on the Hi passed FOH signal ,if the bass cab is not in line with the PA.
What if he doesn't have a digital board or a line delay at hand or a phase tool ?
What would "a good engineer" do then ?
Just curious... I often work on those situations and without a digital board , there is not much you can do.
Maybe I'm not a good engineer......

I would suggest the opposite to the bass player ; cut everything below 150hz , you'll feel it from the Pa anyways.....

it took me ten years to accept, but these guys are correct... the way to get your bass into the FOH mix is NOT to turn up on stage, it's to turn down .. or in my case (with our IEM set up and digital input), completely OFF... my bass has never sounded so good in the mix since the only bass volume is coming from the FOH.. I do sometimes use my 115 at low volume to vibrate the floor a little, but the bottom line is to keep your $2,000 bass rig quiet and let the guy with the $20,000 pa system do the work..

+10000000

 

[Gearhead43]

I'm fortunate to be in a position where I can whack myself off. I'm there to let everyone have a good time and I get the money...well, what little money there is.