Grumpy FOH guys!

[JimmyM]

Guess who just earned a vacation from www.doublebasschat.com , the new home of the www.rockabillybass.com forum?

 

[Gearhead43]

Guess who just earned a vacation from www.doublebasschat.com , the new home of the www.rockabillybass.com forum?

Who me?

 

[Korladis]

Turning down the lows might solve the problem.

 

[billfitzmaurice]

If he's a good engineer , he'll need to put a delay on the Hi passed FOH signal ,if the bass cab is not in line with the PA.

The entire backline should be delayed, not just the bass. Delay is most critical on the drums; if the instruments aren't delayed you'll get some smear, but if the drums aren't delayed you'll get double hits.

What if he doesn't have a digital board or a line delay at hand or a phase tool ?
What would "a good engineer" do then ?

Global delay is adequate, and that's contained in any LMS. Now if he's running a Mackie 1604 into JBL Eons there will be some limitations of course.

I would suggest the opposite to the bass player ; cut everything below 150hz , you'll feel it from the Pa anyways.....

That doesn't address the underlying problem of room modes than can cause an almost complete absence of low end on the stage while the rest of the venue has a low end surplus. An audio engineer with knowledge of acoustics will recognize the underlying source of the problem and will know how to address it so that both the players on stage and the listeners in the audience are pleased with the result. A generic 'soundman' won't.

 

[MonkeyBass]

Well, if you aren't a knob tweeker (constantly having to fine tune "your" sound on your rig), then it sounds like you need to set up your rig across the stage and go wireless. Getting about 20-30 feet away from your rig is the ONLY way to hear it like everyone else hears it. A plexi wall for the drums and a guitarist who knows how to turn knobs to the left are a far off 2nd.

P.S. Not only am I a bassist, but I AM one of those grumpy guys. If you had to deal with a different set of a$$#@les with 6 foot tall rigs every weekend, you would be grumpy too. We have NO CONTROL over volume or tone if everyone's STAGE VOLUME IS TOO LOUD! Either quit crying and deal with it, or run sound from the stage and don't get a sound guy (which will sound horrible BTW). Sorry. Such is life.

I am also a bassist/grumpy FOH guy and yes... move the amp across the stage. I've tried it myself and it's shocking to hear the difference. Or... get a smaller cab and aim it at your head.

If you're too loud you're too loud.

 

[fokof]

The entire backline should be delayed, not just the bass.

Of course ,and with any digital board , you can apply different delays to all inputs if you want/need. That one of the advantage of digital boards

Global delay is adequate, and that's contained in any LMS. Now if he's running a Mackie 1604 into JBL Eons there will be some limitations of course.

Now if he's running a Mackie 1604 into JBL Eons ,a global backline delay can save the day !

]That doesn't address the underlying problem of room modes than can cause an almost complete absence of low end on the stage while the rest of the venue has a low end surplus. An audio engineer with knowledge of acoustics will recognize the underlying source of the problem and will know how to address it so that both the players on stage and the listeners in the audience are pleased with the result. A generic 'soundman' won't.

I don't know about you , but I've rarely encountered problems with bass players amp over 200hz. I'm not talking PA , mirrors , windows or balcony etc... I'm talking a bass player onstage.
When I do , the first thing I do is move the amp around , put it on the side if it's on the back , etc...

 

[kraigo]

It goes further than that to me. My entire goal is to hear myself. That's a win. Sometimes it's a challenge to get that. I rarely have a tone I love (I like massive low end, but it's counter productive) and that I can hear clearly and a happy band/sound guy all at once.

In order of importance:

1) I can hear what I'm playing.

2) The band can hear what they're playing and we can get a decent mix.

3) I like the tone.

I have learned to compromise on my volume and my tone, so I can just hear myself and I don't dislike what I'm hearing for the good of the band and the audience.

I think it's toughest on bassists, although it's tough for multiple guitarists to differentiate themselves. As a drummer I have it fairly easy until people start making unrealistic demands in terms of low volumes.

KO

Well, hate to say it but that's your problem. What you need to do is get yourself into the mindset that a good onstage sound where you get a balance with everyone else without blasting over them is the ticket. It's all psychology. You have to talk yourself into getting into it. The best way to do that is to picture the owner of the venue running up to you and firing your band 2 songs into the first set, then picture the rest of the guys in the band getting pissed at you because you had to have it your way. Then picture yourself at the gig, and the owner says, "A lot of bass players come in here and turn up way too loud and blow the place out, but you didn't, so I want you to come back often. And next time, you're headlining."

A good onstage mix almost always results in a good FOH mix. A poor onstage mix where one guy lets his ego get the best of him and blows the crowd out always results in epic fail.

 

[Lonnybass]

A couple years back I came to the realization that the best setup for the big outdoor festival stages was either 1) putting the bass rig just offstage, perhaps behind one of the speaker arrays, for side-fill, or 2) eliminating the bass cabinets completely and just going DI out of my rack preamp and instead opting for a monitor mix.

This accomplished two goals - it eliminated phase and noise from the stage to the FOH desk, and it eliminated much of the mic bleed and onstage din in favor of a much better overall blend.

Yes it takes a while to get used to, and no, stage monitors simply aren't going to sound the way a nice $3 or $4K bass rig is going to amplify. But through a huge $50K PA rig crossed over with subs and a line array, hello. So it's not the Gene Simmons look, but who cares?

Lonnybass

 

[billfitzmaurice]

I don't know about you , but I've rarely encountered problems with bass players amp over 200hz. ...

That's because 200 to 300 Hz is where the speaker radiation pattern changes from omni-directional to directional, effectively removing most boundaries from the equation. It's only below that range where room modes can cause the amp to be very hard to hear on stage, or, on the other hand, too easy to hear on a boomy stage.

 

[kraigo]

My solution has generally been to cut a lot of low end out of my tone. I try to get a tight punchy sound on stage that allows me to keep the volume in check without too much bleed out front(or on the stage).

That's been my experience - often when people say "less bass" you can placate them by turning down the low end - it's frequency range, not the instrument.

KO

 

[synterx]

Also, don't forget to edumacate your guitar guys. On a gig last weekend, with a new guitarist on my side of the stage, I noticed my same old amp settings were no longer working. I couldn't hear a note I played all of a sudden. I had to walk over to his amp mid-song and physically turn his bass knob way down on his amp. He likes to hear his tone like he does when he's at home by himself cranking his amp. Problem is, he's now in my range of tone, and I'd have to have had turned up way way louder than normal.

On small stages/rooms, everyone needs to cooperate with stage volume and tones.

 

[Turn Em Loose]

On small stages/rooms, everyone needs to cooperate with stage volume and tones.

'Zactly. Well put.

Also, try working with a FOH guy before you start working against him.

Seems, more often than not, that soundmen seem to bring too much gear for a room and proceed to mix poorly. (Maybe just the soundmen I've run across recently?) But all you can do is try to work with them. Working against a FOH guy, even a bad one, is not the way to go. You'll just make a bad FOH sound worse.

IMO, of course.

 

[kraigo]

I would suggest the opposite to the bass player ; cut everything below 150hz , you'll feel it from the Pa anyways.....



+10000000

Who said biamping is dead?

KO

 

[Eric Perry]

A good onstage mix almost always results in a good FOH mix. A poor onstage mix where one guy lets his ego get the best of him and blows the crowd out always results in epic fail.

I think this deserves to be repeated.