Has anyone bought and NOT liked a Sadowsky??

[BartmanPDX]

Regarding CNC parts:

IIRC, Sadowsky has the parts spec'ed so they require a certain amount of hand sanding in order to fit -- i.e. the CNC machine does the rough work, but the very tight neck pocket fit (the most critical part of a bolt-on where QC is concerned) is all done by hand.

In short, I don't think it matters whether the rough cuts of the body blank wood are done by machine or by hand. The difference is how much builder time is spent on choosing good wood, making certain the neck joint is as tight as possible, and that everything is dialed in well.

There's a big difference between a builder who is just grabbing CNC'ed parts off a shelf and bolting them together and someone who is really taking lots of time and hand sanding to make sure the neck joint is perfect.

I agree that the term "hand made" is not of much use any more as it has been assigned so many different meanings. All basses are hand made in one sense, and almost none are in the strictest sense. Sadowsky does put a great deal of builder time into making a bass compared to most bolt-on builders. That's reflected in both the quality and the price.

 

[thisSNsucks]

Regarding CNC parts:

IIRC, Sadowsky has the parts spec'ed so they require a certain amount of hand sanding in order to fit -- i.e. the CNC machine does the rough work, but the very tight neck pocket fit (the most critical part of a bolt-on where QC is concerned) is all done by hand.

In short, I don't think it matters whether the rough cuts of the body blank wood are done by machine or by hand. The difference is how much builder time is spent on choosing good wood, making certain the neck joint is as tight as possible, and that everything is dialed in well.

There's a big difference between a builder who is just grabbing CNC'ed parts off a shelf and bolting them together and someone who is really taking lots of time and hand sanding to make sure the neck joint is perfect.

I agree that the term "hand made" is not of much use any more as it has been assigned so many different meanings.

Yup it's all in the Behind the Notes video and in Roger's Interview with Jim D'Addario. The neck route is cut undersized so each neck gets hand fit to a specific body.

I believe they do a a lot of the neck and fingerboard shaping on the NYC's by hand as well.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Regarding CNC parts:

IIRC, Sadowsky has the parts spec'ed so they require a certain amount of hand sanding in order to fit -- i.e. the CNC machine does the rough work, but the very tight neck pocket fit (the most critical part of a bolt-on where QC is concerned) is all done by hand.

In short, I don't think it matters whether the rough cuts of the body blank wood are done by machine or by hand. The difference is how much builder time is spent on choosing good wood, making certain the neck joint is as tight as possible, and that everything is dialed in well.

There's a big difference between a builder who is just grabbing CNC'ed parts off a shelf and bolting them together and someone who is really taking lots of time and hand sanding to make sure the neck joint is perfect.

I agree that the term "hand made" is not of much use any more as it has been assigned so many different meanings. All basses are hand made in one sense, and almost none are in the strictest sense. Sadowsky does put a great deal of builder time into making a bass compared to most bolt-on builders. That's reflected in both the quality and the price.

Agreed.

I'm in the camp where I really don't care how it's made, the results are what matter. By today's slant, you're right... hand made doesn't mean what it used to.

 

[Jared Lash]

I just recall many threads where the terminology was discussed and found this tangent interest. Apologies to those who think it's somehow wrong.


All hand made used to mean that... but it doesn't preclude the use of power tools or jigs and ultimately at their CNC's are a combination of both. Here's where it gets interesting (at least to me):

I think it's an interesting discussion actually. But then, having a day job that involves marketing and merchandising of new products makes me more aware of the semantics of selling I suppose.

I still get annoyed seeing "New & Improved" on packaging and advertising when by definition no product could ever possibly be both and when the reality is that it was likely pulled from the shelf and retooled after less than expected initial sales. But I digress.

Here's another extreme example. Suppose Roger Sadowsky decided to farm out the sanding, fitting, fretwork etc to a Chinese shop to cut costs. He could say that all of these workers were expertly trained to do things the "Sadowsky way" and thus the quality would be exactly the same as before. At that point how would the instruments be different from an MIM Fender or Skyline Lakland? People would likely not accept the "hand made" claim at all and yet only the location (okay and likely the confidence in the individual workers) has changed.

Obviously Sadowsky would never do that, it's just an extreme example but it underscores why I can't accept the idea that Sadowsky basses are "hand made".

But once again, it's a quibble with a term, not with the basses. As I've already said, whatever method is used, the end product is an unbelievably good represetation of the goals of these instruments.

EDIT: BartmanPDX hit it on the head with his post as far as I'm concerned.

 

[BartmanPDX]

Agreed.

I'm in the camp where I really don't care how it's made, the results are what matter.

Me too. While the idea of some hermit toiling in his cabin hand carving my bass has some romantic appeal, it's not terribly practical on any kind of scale. I don't see anything wrong with a builder using whatever he thinks are the best tools to achieve his vision. In the end, it's all about how it plays, not where it came from.

 

[Brad Johnson]

I think it's an interesting discussion actually. But then, having a day job that involves marketing and merchandising of new products makes me more aware of the semantics of selling I suppose.

same here.

I still get annoyed seeing "New & Improved" on packaging and advertising when by definition no product could ever possibly be both and when the reality is that it was likely pulled from the shelf and retooled after less than expected initial sales. But I digress.

Here's another extreme example. Suppose Roger Sadowsky decided to farm out the sanding, fitting, fretwork etc to a Chinese shop to cut costs. He could say that all of these workers were expertly trained to do things the "Sadowsky way" and thus the quality would be exactly the same as before. At that point how would the instruments be different from an MIM Fender or Skyline Lakland? People would likely not accept the "hand made" claim at all and yet only the location (okay and likely the confidence in the individual workers) has changed.

Obviously Sadowsky would never do that, it's just an extreme example but it underscores why I can't accept the idea that Sadowsky basses are "hand made".

But once again, it's a quibble with a term, not with the basses. As I've already said, whatever method is used, the end product is an unbelievably good represetation of the goals of these instruments.

EDIT: BartmanPDX hit it on the head with his post as far as I'm concerned.

That is also what I was getting at. If there's a line, where do you draw it? "Hand made" is typically construed to mean "better" (otherwise why bother to even mention it?) when in reality it doesn't mean much of anything in particular anymore. It's all over the place.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Me too. While the idea of some hermit toiling in his cabin hand carving my bass has some romantic appeal, it's not terribly practical on any kind of scale. I don't see anything wrong with a builder using whatever he thinks are the best tools to achieve his vision. In the end, it's all about how it plays, not where it came from.

Sounds like the Unabomber.


That too was a joke.

 

[Jared Lash]

same here.



That is also what I was getting at. If there's a line, where do you draw it? "Hand made" is typically construed to mean "better" (otherwise why bother to even mention it?) when in reality it doesn't mean much of anything in particular anymore. It's all over the place.

And that's the crux of things. Hand made is often assumed to be better. But there are those that will swear that CNC'd is the best method for accuracy and consistency.

Just like PLEK'd instruments are better in the eyes of some consumers/bass players. And yet others (including Roger Sadowsky) will say that fretwork done by hand is superior.

At the end of the day all that really matters is the final product. The methods used don't matter when you can simply play and examine two basses and decide for yourself which one is superior in terms of construction and the ever subjective "tone".

I love small builders like Stambaugh, LeCompte, Bordwell and others (I assume the latter two do their woodwork by hand, I can't say for sure) but the reality is simply that "hand made" is not something a builder that wants to produce on a substantial scale can maintain. At a certian point it would be impossible to maintain consistency.

 

[jnammy]

“Hand-made” is great for things like rugs, jewelry, etc., but when it comes to precision instruments, I personally wouldn’t trust anything that is 100% hand made. I’ve had a few custom basses that were “hand made” and they’ve had some real obvious flaws, things that you’d never find on a basic Ibanez or Yamaha. I also think that a lot of luthiers don’t use CNC machines because they simply don’t have one; of course they’re going to say that it’s because they’re staying “true to the art”. IMO, Roger has put together a good combination of hand and machine made parts that work well together with very consistent results.

 

[Jake Morris]

hey guys. I did not try any Sadowskys yet, but I did try a Pensa Custom today at Rudy's Music in NYC. Must say I fell in love with it. Sadly, I'm 15 and don't have nearly enough money for that, even when my dad said he would be willing to pay for 1/2 considering it was an invenstment for my future music career. Now this Pensa was around $3,200. That is a lot of money. A LOT. So I wanna do all my homework and see what bass would be best for me. I already have a standard american jazz bass, rickenbacker, and warwick 5 string. and the Pensa is just a tricked out fender jazz. VERY tricked out. higher output pickups for sure. But is it really what i want? or should i go for a bass with humbuckers or p-90's? and any comments on roscoe basses? would the sadowsky metro m5- 24 fit my needs? i see some of you guys dont like the metro ones. oh how i hate this process.

 

[Lorenzini]

Here fixed it for ya.......






Luv ya Bradley ol' boy!!!

Tks Mike!

 

[Brad Johnson]

And that's the crux of things. Hand made is often assumed to be better. But there are those that will swear that CNC'd is the best method for accuracy and consistency.

Just like PLEK'd instruments are better in the eyes of some consumers/bass players. And yet others (including Roger Sadowsky) will say that fretwork done by hand is superior.

At the end of the day all that really matters is the final product. The methods used don't matter when you can simply play and examine two basses and decide for yourself which one is superior in terms of construction and the ever subjective "tone".

I love small builders like Stambaugh, LeCompte, Bordwell and others (I assume the latter two do their woodwork by hand, I can't say for sure) but the reality is simply that "hand made" is not something a builder that wants to produce on a substantial scale can maintain. At a certian point it would be impossible to maintain consistency.

Agreed. CNC's are not free of the influence of people. For better or worse. And I won't even get into the Plek superiority thing again.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Tks Mike!

I know it's fun to pop in and take the shot but I'm genuinely curious... what did I get wrong in this thread? If the answer's nothing...

 

[BartmanPDX]

hey guys. I did not try any Sadowskys yet, but I did try a Pensa Custom today at Rudy's Music in NYC. Must say I fell in love with it. Sadly, I'm 15 and don't have nearly enough money for that, even when my dad said he would be willing to pay for 1/2 considering it was an invenstment for my future music career. Now this Pensa was around $3,200. That is a lot of money. A LOT. So I wanna do all my homework and see what bass would be best for me. I already have a standard american jazz bass, rickenbacker, and warwick 5 string. and the Pensa is just a tricked out fender jazz. VERY tricked out. higher output pickups for sure. But is it really what i want? or should i go for a bass with humbuckers or p-90's? and any comments on roscoe basses? would the sadowsky metro m5- 24 fit my needs? i see some of you guys dont like the metro ones. oh how i hate this process.

At that price point, you owe it to yourself to try as many of the higher end basses as you can. If you're in NYC you should be able to try lots of things. Including going to Brooklyn and visiting Roger's shop, where you can try several of his models.

 

[Jake Morris]

@bartmanPDX.. thx for the advice. This is a huge investment for me and I should try everything I possibly can. So I can go straight to roger to try some of his stuff? That's cool. What do u think of pensas? I've heard people say sadowskys are over priced.

 

[Jake Morris]

And roscoe? How do I try those out

 

[Brad Johnson]

@bartmanPDX.. thx for the advice. This is a huge investment for me and I should try everything I possibly can. So I can go straight to roger to try some of his stuff? That's cool. What do u think of pensas? I've heard people say sadowskys are over priced.

People say all sorts of stuff.


I'd call first. Then you'll know what to expect and they'll know to expect you.

 

[BartmanPDX]

@bartmanPDX.. thx for the advice. This is a huge investment for me and I should try everything I possibly can. So I can go straight to roger to try some of his stuff? That's cool. What do u think of pensas? I've heard people say sadowskys are over priced.

Pensas are extremely nice. At $3200, I'm sure lots of people would say they are overpriced as well.

Different people like different things. After several years of trying hundreds of different basses at GTGs and in stores, I ended up buying a Sadowsky, which was what I liked best. Right before I ordered it I happened to be in Brooklyn, so I stopped by the shop and spent some time talking to Roger and playing various basses at the shop. By the time I left I had finalized my dream bass in my head. I'd played almost every other high end bass out there, so I felt confident in what I'd picked out.

It arrived in March, and is hands-down the best bass (for my tastes) I've ever played.

YMMV.

Should be some place in NY which might have a Roscoe. Ask the folks on the Roscoe thread. Those are killer basses too. I nearly got one myself.

 

[Brad Johnson]

And roscoe? How do I try those out

Check their website for dealers or go to their forum here and you might find a few in your immediate area.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Brad. Wow. This post seemed witty at the time. The whole reading for actual content thingy is much harder than I thought.

Really fixed it for ya. And you too, Mike.