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Help me understand this mentality

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You're free to give recommendations to as many unreliable people as you want, but I won't. Then again, I actually DIDN'T fail out of ANY college classes, didn't blow any professors off, and have also had a successful career. How about this: YOU take the misunderstood flakes, and I'll take the responsible people who treat others with respect and manners. Deal?
I love that we're on a musicians forum and you're disparaging the "misunderstood flakes".
 
Okay, Seanto and MordBass, you two seem to have taken up the banner of "ghosting and coming back from it to ask for something as though it never happened is reasonable," so I have some follow-up questions. I hope you won't take them as aggressive or judgmental. I'm totally just curious.

You share a certain skepticism of authority and expertise...

OP thinks that they are somehow reinforcing a universal standard of professionalism

I got a feeling of "I have oh so generously bestowed wonders upon you, hare dare thou not appreciate it."

...which is not in itself confusing. What is confusing is the idea that you would not try to manipulate this system to your benefit, even if you don't take it seriously. Like, even if your boss or teacher is an idiot who doesn't deserve their position, if you need something from them, wouldn't part of trying to obtain that something involve trying to get them to think well of you, in part by expressing (in this case inauthentic) respect for their expertise and authority?

Seanto, when you say:

Yes, i would give an unreliable person a good reference, because the whole system of it is bullsh*t anyway.

...is this something you would directly say to someone from whom you wanted a letter of reference? Would you be surprised if saying this affected your likelihood of getting such a letter?

Mordbass, your question:

Are you really going to hold somebody to the one bad thing that they did in a position that was ultimately voluntary and unpaid?

...cuts right to the heart of the matter: For you, it seems that suddenly blowing off a bunch of people who are relying on you, severing all contact with them, and not offering them any explanation, even later when you come back and want something from them, is minimal enough to be called "the one bad thing they did." From my (and I expect the OP's) perspective, ghosting like this, however common or "normal" it may be, seems like it must include the assumption that the relationship will be seriously damaged, if not destroyed, and that if it can be patched back up, it is likely to require a lot of work on the ghoster's part.

Again, this is so far not confusing, just a difference in position. What is confusing is that you would not suspect that the person from whom you want something is likely to take this second position and you are going to have to overcome that difference before there is any chance of getting what you want.

So, for example, when you tell this story...

I abandoned a job once when I was younger because I had just gotten to work and suddenly had a massive panic attack... I didn't owe an explanation to anybody at that job.

...if you had showed up after 3 days, 3 months, or the full 2 years, and started about your daily tasks without comment, would you expect nothing to be said about it? Would you be surprised if your boss said something like "*** dude? Where did you go? What happened? You don't work here any more and, unless you provide a satisfactory explanation, you can't have your old job back!"?

Seanto, you present an interesting worldview that serves to explain some of this here:

If someone ghosts out on me i generally am not mad at it or think that some sort of justice needs to be served. I just go on with my life and assume they did it for a good reason. Nobody is truly obligated to be my friend or fulfill their commitments to me and that is OK and i will reciprocate that feeling. Way of the world.

...But you say "generally." I am curious to know if there are individuals or relationships in your life in relation to whom this would feel like this was a big deal? Do you have parents, siblings, children, SI, or best friend who, if they agreed to meet up with you but instead suddenly disappeared from your life and refused contact with you for months, and then they showed up at your door and acted as if nothing had happened, you would do more than shrug?

Again, I hope you both take these questions in the spirit of naive inquiry in which they are intended.
 
I love that we're on a musicians forum and you're disparaging the "misunderstood flakes".
Believe me, I have to deal with them all the time, too. We just poopie-canned our "misunderstood" keyboard player, who was actually a nice guy and a great keyboardist, but who for whatever reason was unable or unwilling to learn/come up with parts or even practice, week after week after week. ***? What were we SUPPOSED to do--pat him on the head and say it's okay if you want to keep wrecking our gigs? Uh, sorry, no--BUH-BYE, you infant! Life is hard--for ALL OF US. That's what those "misunderstood" people don't get...
 
Okay, Seanto and MordBass, you two seem to have taken up the banner of "ghosting and coming back from it to ask for something as though it never happened is reasonable," so I have some follow-up questions. I hope you won't take them as aggressive or judgmental. I'm totally just curious.

You share a certain skepticism of authority and expertise...





...which is not in itself confusing. What is confusing is the idea that you would not try to manipulate this system to your benefit, even if you don't take it seriously. Like, even if your boss or teacher is an idiot who doesn't deserve their position, if you need something from them, wouldn't part of trying to obtain that something involve trying to get them to think well of you, in part by expressing (in this case inauthentic) respect for their expertise and authority?

Seanto, when you say:



...is this something you would directly say to someone from whom you wanted a letter of reference? Would you be surprised if saying this affected your likelihood of getting such a letter?

Mordbass, your question:



...cuts right to the heart of the matter: For you, it seems that suddenly blowing off a bunch of people who are relying on you, severing all contact with them, and not offering them any explanation, even later when you come back and want something from them, is minimal enough to be called "the one bad thing they did." From my (and I expect the OP's) perspective, ghosting like this, however common or "normal" it may be, seems like it must include the assumption that the relationship will be seriously damaged, if not destroyed, and that if it can be patched back up, it is likely to require a lot of work on the ghoster's part.

Again, this is so far not confusing, just a difference in position. What is confusing is that you would not suspect that the person from whom you want something is likely to take this second position and you are going to have to overcome that difference before there is any chance of getting what you want.

So, for example, when you tell this story...



...if you had showed up after 3 days, 3 months, or the full 2 years, and started about your daily tasks without comment, would you expect nothing to be said about it? Would you be surprised if your boss said something like "*** dude? Where did you go? What happened? You don't work here any more and, unless you provide a satisfactory explanation, you can't have your old job back!"?

Seanto, you present an interesting worldview that serves to explain some of this here:



...But you say "generally." I am curious to know if there are individuals or relationships in your life in relation to whom this would feel like this was a big deal? Do you have parents, siblings, children, SI, or best friend who, if they agreed to meet up with you but instead suddenly disappeared from your life and refused contact with you for months, and then they showed up at your door and acted as if nothing had happened, you would do more than shrug?

Again, I hope you both take these questions in the spirit of naive inquiry in which they are intended.


Yea, I maintain that I don't give somebody a reference based solely on the most recent negative thing they did. Also, if I had a great track record that was deserving of promotion and then had one issue, I wouldnt expect it to void all of the positive interactions between myself and the other person.
And no, your comparison of waltzing back into a job like you work there is not the same as asking a professor for a recommendation.
 
Believe me, I have to deal with them all the time, too. We just poopie-canned our "misunderstood" keyboard player, who was actually a nice guy and a great keyboardist, but who for whatever reason was unable or unwilling to learn/come up with parts or even practice, week after week after week. ***? What were we SUPPOSED to do--pat him on the head and say it's okay if you want to keep wrecking our gigs? Uh, sorry, no--BUH-BYE, you infant! Life is hard--for ALL OF US. That's what those "misunderstood" people don't get...
Personally, Id have tossed your personality before theirs. Ive worked in hiring/training and management and to be honest, you're the type that I always avoided hiring because you're usually a negative impact on the rest of the staff.
 
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Personally, Id have tossed your personality before theirs. Ive worked in hiring/training and management and to be honest, you're the type that I always avoided hiring because you're usually a negative impact on the rest of the staff.
Yeah, well, I was actually learning my parts, and practicing every night, and showing up on time, and even DRIVING the other guy to rehearsals and gigs. Who needs THAT, huh? LOL...
 
My dad ghosted me and the rest of our family. He was an adult. I was in elementary school. He would have been in his 40s. Been near 25 years since communication. I don't think it has anything to do with the internet, age, or whatever. People have done this sort of thing for as long as people have existed. I even know of people having just disappearing one day, moving across country, and starting a new life under a new identity.

He asked you for and insisted on a recommendation from you because he doesn't understand how the world works. I once asked for a recommendation from someone that didn't give an immediate and emphatic yes. When you are young and getting your first recommendations, you think they are just a check box no one cares about more than the prestige of the person writing it. You don't realize that if someone says, "Are you sure there isn't someone better than me?" let alone refuses to write it, that they aren't the person for you. You also don't realize a really well written recommendation by a doofus is better than a mediocre recommendation from a celebrity.
 
your comparison of waltzing back into a job like you work there is not the same as asking a professor for a recommendation.

Cool, maybe we can zero in on this difference a little. My impression is that, from OP's perspective, ghoster asking for a letter of reference with no explanation of ghosting IS waltzing back into a professional relationship, expecting it to be unchanged by the ghosting.

Is it what's being asked for that makes the difference for you? Would it feel awkward for you now to ask your employer at the job you walked out of for a letter of reference? Would you be surprised if they were unwilling to write such a letter based on your having walked out?
 
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Okay, Seanto and MordBass, you two seem to have taken up the banner of "ghosting and coming back from it to ask for something as though it never happened is reasonable," so I have some follow-up questions. I hope you won't take them as aggressive or judgmental. I'm totally just curious.

You share a certain skepticism of authority and expertise...





...which is not in itself confusing. What is confusing is the idea that you would not try to manipulate this system to your benefit, even if you don't take it seriously. Like, even if your boss or teacher is an idiot who doesn't deserve their position, if you need something from them, wouldn't part of trying to obtain that something involve trying to get them to think well of you, in part by expressing (in this case inauthentic) respect for their expertise and authority?

Seanto, when you say:



...is this something you would directly say to someone from whom you wanted a letter of reference? Would you be surprised if saying this affected your likelihood of getting such a letter?

Mordbass, your question:



...cuts right to the heart of the matter: For you, it seems that suddenly blowing off a bunch of people who are relying on you, severing all contact with them, and not offering them any explanation, even later when you come back and want something from them, is minimal enough to be called "the one bad thing they did." From my (and I expect the OP's) perspective, ghosting like this, however common or "normal" it may be, seems like it must include the assumption that the relationship will be seriously damaged, if not destroyed, and that if it can be patched back up, it is likely to require a lot of work on the ghoster's part.

Again, this is so far not confusing, just a difference in position. What is confusing is that you would not suspect that the person from whom you want something is likely to take this second position and you are going to have to overcome that difference before there is any chance of getting what you want.

So, for example, when you tell this story...



...if you had showed up after 3 days, 3 months, or the full 2 years, and started about your daily tasks without comment, would you expect nothing to be said about it? Would you be surprised if your boss said something like "*** dude? Where did you go? What happened? You don't work here any more and, unless you provide a satisfactory explanation, you can't have your old job back!"?

Seanto, you present an interesting worldview that serves to explain some of this here:



...But you say "generally." I am curious to know if there are individuals or relationships in your life in relation to whom this would feel like this was a big deal? Do you have parents, siblings, children, SI, or best friend who, if they agreed to meet up with you but instead suddenly disappeared from your life and refused contact with you for months, and then they showed up at your door and acted as if nothing had happened, you would do more than shrug?

Again, I hope you both take these questions in the spirit of naive inquiry in which they are intended.

Overall, i just have a bitterness about where we have put our priorities in the whole system of professionalism. All the way from high school, to college, to ones career. I should probably note i am talking about the environment in the US particularly. College is the most overpriced, inefficient education mechanism i can think of. I also don't think highly of how companies reinforce that by requiring degrees from said colleges. Then there's the whole job screening process which is rife with non-genuine interactions and straight up lies to get a job. And just about everyone does it. I truly think this pressure to meet up with the group think is making alot of people miserable. I respect those who find another way and can then live on their own terms instead of someone else's. I am trying to find what that looks like for myself, because i got too deep in the normal way of doing things to finally realize that all i am doing is setting my life up to be hard work and stress, with little meaning, to only have financial stability in return but not much else. Not much free time, that's for sure.

As for the concept of ghosting, i said "generally" because there are some situations where i would feel badly from being ghosted. But those aren't the more common and casual situations it tends to happen. It's those more common situations that don't bug me...a bandmate not answering my calls, a co-worker not showing up for work, a plumber not showing up to fix my pipes. I am also pretty forgiving if in those situations the person did end up coming back into my life to redeem themselves.

But i know my way of thinking is not the norm. I am fairly anti-establishment at this point in my life and have a decent amount of resentment against our government, corporations, education system, and the shear waste of modern society. These things are holding people down quite often instead of lifting people up.
 
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