“Practice what you preach” is a good one too.
Enjoy the benefits of a premium membership!
Upgrade Account
-
TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
Join free Log in
Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.
Honest opinions please... A rant.. Kinda...
- Thread starter DrayMiles
- Start date
It depends... personally when I was just a year or two out of high school I joined an established band as drummer. everything was going great. We had quite a few gigs setup, in some pretty well known local venues. (this was in Chicago area about the time Styx was emerging from some of the same venues.) Then the lead singer noticed that I wasn't singing backup. I DON'T SING. and he decided that if I wanted to play in his band, I had to sing. He gave a rant similar to what you described. I packed up and walked out on the spot. I was followed by two other established members... thus ended the band permanently. If it is that hard to get along, its time to get out.
Last edited:
I was curious, so I asked a guitarist that used to be in MY band years ago a pertinent question. Here's the conversation... for the record... 
Me: "James.. be honest.. Was I a tough band leader? And don't pull any punches..."
James: " hmmm... tough?? Nah, I wouldn’t say that. What I learnt later as a band leader myself was the clear focus you need to make what you imagine to come to life on stage. I know you gave me stacks of creative room and if I was honest it was the period of playing in which I improved the most in my musical life. So I’ll be honest... you’re probably the best bandleader I ever had."
For the record...
Me: "James.. be honest.. Was I a tough band leader? And don't pull any punches..."
James: " hmmm... tough?? Nah, I wouldn’t say that. What I learnt later as a band leader myself was the clear focus you need to make what you imagine to come to life on stage. I know you gave me stacks of creative room and if I was honest it was the period of playing in which I improved the most in my musical life. So I’ll be honest... you’re probably the best bandleader I ever had."
For the record...
Well...not having read the 10 pages of replies and not knowing if the OP will read this...
The guy probably earned what you wrote. BUT...speaking as a professional writer...in my experience dropping confrontational f-bombs into correspondence causes an immediate tune-out on the part of the reader. It also grants the recipient a level of potentially undeserved moral high ground: "Read this! Can you believe what he wrote?? What an *******!"
Also, as someone who knows (but is most definitely not) a few world-class musicians who have worked with top-tier acts, a touch of even false humility goes a long way. As someone said, "Do you know who I am??" isn't generally an effective communication tool, unless you can back it up with "I just purchased this company and guess what, buddy...you're fired." Something along the lines of a friendly, "Dude...with all due respect, you seem a little unprepared. I don't know if something's going on in your life right now or what, but if I can assist or we can rejigger this so things work better, just tell me. I want the gig to succeed as much as you do," would be a lot more effective.
I assume you already wrote and sent the note, so I guess this is for future reference. You have a quote on your profile that references the unfortunate effectiveness of marketing. Something similar applies to being nice (or at least diplomatic). There are plenty of actors and musicians in this world who get more gigs than the other guy simply because people are more willing to spend time in a room with them. An enormously talented kidney stone is still a kidney stone. Just sayin'.
-Pete
The guy probably earned what you wrote. BUT...speaking as a professional writer...in my experience dropping confrontational f-bombs into correspondence causes an immediate tune-out on the part of the reader. It also grants the recipient a level of potentially undeserved moral high ground: "Read this! Can you believe what he wrote?? What an *******!"
Also, as someone who knows (but is most definitely not) a few world-class musicians who have worked with top-tier acts, a touch of even false humility goes a long way. As someone said, "Do you know who I am??" isn't generally an effective communication tool, unless you can back it up with "I just purchased this company and guess what, buddy...you're fired." Something along the lines of a friendly, "Dude...with all due respect, you seem a little unprepared. I don't know if something's going on in your life right now or what, but if I can assist or we can rejigger this so things work better, just tell me. I want the gig to succeed as much as you do," would be a lot more effective.
I assume you already wrote and sent the note, so I guess this is for future reference. You have a quote on your profile that references the unfortunate effectiveness of marketing. Something similar applies to being nice (or at least diplomatic). There are plenty of actors and musicians in this world who get more gigs than the other guy simply because people are more willing to spend time in a room with them. An enormously talented kidney stone is still a kidney stone. Just sayin'.
-Pete
I have struggled with this type of situation for decades. Unlike you, making your feelings more than clear in a strongly worded letter, I would make suggestions or even just glances at players while on a gig to let them know things were not sounding up to snuff. That led to a few three page letters from drummers and guitarists that told me off way more harshly than your letter.
While your position is obviously in the interest of producing the best product, you will rarely be able to get people to see it that way.....at least until they become better and more professional about their career. You are treating them like a professional musician is treated when money and reputation are on the line. Like a producer in a studio session, or a band leader on a television show. In those situations, there is no messing around, and the consequences are much more severe than getting a letter. If you are called out for being ill prepared, you may never work again. So, in a world of professional music, your approach was not too harsh. The question is, was this gig worthy of giving that strong of an opinion.
My take is that if you give advice, you have to be extremely diplomatic about it because egos get hurt so easily. I have also found that without exception, the less accomplished a player is, the more they think they are on top of their game, and beyond reproach. They recoil at the slightest advice or disapproval of their mistakes, so getting your point across without raising their hackles is virtually impossible.
The long and short of it is I have learned to pick my battles. I will assess the players, and rate the importance of the gig now before I open my mouth or give anyone the stink eye. If they are consummate pros, I will make kindly worded suggestions which may or may not point out a particular musician. My default is if the gig is second rate with no people of importance to my career in the audience, I let everything slide and just have fun. This works well with drummers who are my number one offenders of the pocket. If you just let them make their flubs and don't try to correct them during the tune or make the player feel self conscious, the groove will correct itself faster than if you intervene.
My opinion is your letter was way too harsh, and you need to use more diplomacy if you do not want to be shut out by other musicians.
While your position is obviously in the interest of producing the best product, you will rarely be able to get people to see it that way.....at least until they become better and more professional about their career. You are treating them like a professional musician is treated when money and reputation are on the line. Like a producer in a studio session, or a band leader on a television show. In those situations, there is no messing around, and the consequences are much more severe than getting a letter. If you are called out for being ill prepared, you may never work again. So, in a world of professional music, your approach was not too harsh. The question is, was this gig worthy of giving that strong of an opinion.
My take is that if you give advice, you have to be extremely diplomatic about it because egos get hurt so easily. I have also found that without exception, the less accomplished a player is, the more they think they are on top of their game, and beyond reproach. They recoil at the slightest advice or disapproval of their mistakes, so getting your point across without raising their hackles is virtually impossible.
The long and short of it is I have learned to pick my battles. I will assess the players, and rate the importance of the gig now before I open my mouth or give anyone the stink eye. If they are consummate pros, I will make kindly worded suggestions which may or may not point out a particular musician. My default is if the gig is second rate with no people of importance to my career in the audience, I let everything slide and just have fun. This works well with drummers who are my number one offenders of the pocket. If you just let them make their flubs and don't try to correct them during the tune or make the player feel self conscious, the groove will correct itself faster than if you intervene.
My opinion is your letter was way too harsh, and you need to use more diplomacy if you do not want to be shut out by other musicians.
Jazzdogg
Less barking, more wagging!
If I had sent that email (instead of talking face-to-face or telephoning), I would apologize for for my lack of professionalism.
The greatest professional musicians I've known have had GREAT PEOPLE SKILLS, which will get you you more gigs and more call-backs than "monster chops," a masters degree, or an impressive discography IMHO.
Advice: whenever you are tempted to send such an email, write it, but give yourself 24-hours before you send it; hopefully, you'll read it, wince, and delete it.
Good luck!
"But at times I get frustrated when the BL sends out a song list for practice the day before we're supposed to rehearse."
This is the ultimate expression of what being a "professional" musician is all about. While not allowing the band time to absorb the tunes is unprofessional as hell, being able to pull off the tunes with no preparation is what a pro does. I have been in this exact spot so many times in my career, that I just expect it now.
This is the ultimate expression of what being a "professional" musician is all about. While not allowing the band time to absorb the tunes is unprofessional as hell, being able to pull off the tunes with no preparation is what a pro does. I have been in this exact spot so many times in my career, that I just expect it now.
Take it from somebody that tends to write emails too bluntly... it really doesn't come off well. But, you were more than blunt. You were personally attacking him. Seriously, that should get you fired... it's not your gig.
If you have a problem with the professional situation, then you discuss it in professional terms. You point out the flaws and how to fix them. You don't personally attack somebody. You went way off of the professional rails and went solidly into the personal realm. As soon as you said...
I guarantee you lost him. After that, it's all just a rant to personally attack the guy.
Personally, I would stay away from assigning motives or personal perceptions to anything. I would stick to the professional facts. All you had to say was you thought he sounded unprepared and that you aren't available to attend extra practices, so he'll have to get it tight on his own time. The only other thing to do, if you were feeling charitable, is to offer a little one-on-one time to help him get it tight... if he comes your way.
Honestly, reading through your other replies, it sounds like you have some personal, pent-up anger for this guy. That can really color your whole demeanor when you talk to somebody. I hope you haven't ruined your chances here. I hope you haven't ruined a friendship (though sometimes, we outgrow friends). I hope you haven't tarnished your reputation. I hope this all works out in the end.
If you have a problem with the professional situation, then you discuss it in professional terms. You point out the flaws and how to fix them. You don't personally attack somebody. You went way off of the professional rails and went solidly into the personal realm. As soon as you said...
I guarantee you lost him. After that, it's all just a rant to personally attack the guy.
Personally, I would stay away from assigning motives or personal perceptions to anything. I would stick to the professional facts. All you had to say was you thought he sounded unprepared and that you aren't available to attend extra practices, so he'll have to get it tight on his own time. The only other thing to do, if you were feeling charitable, is to offer a little one-on-one time to help him get it tight... if he comes your way.
Honestly, reading through your other replies, it sounds like you have some personal, pent-up anger for this guy. That can really color your whole demeanor when you talk to somebody. I hope you haven't ruined your chances here. I hope you haven't ruined a friendship (though sometimes, we outgrow friends). I hope you haven't tarnished your reputation. I hope this all works out in the end.
I personally don't see why this is harsh. If the dude ain't cutting it, he ain't cutting it.
I've had this issue with a few guitarists over the years. So, I tend to learn the guitar parts and help them with learning the parts. Even if it gets frustrating. However, if I received an email like yours, then you'd better stay away from me. It makes you sound like an arrogant dick.
Without reading other responses or your bio.
First, written profanity does not carry the same timber as being on a roll during conversation.
Clearly, avoiding a train wreck is always well advised. Advanced notice is best.
Less is more. Your "critique" is unnecessary. A few mid-tone and well chosen words of regret, encouragement and suggested reflection keeps you above the fray.
Live and learn.
It may sound harsh, but this guy can’t offer me anything... I’m usually the one with the contacts and the numbers. It’s hard to talk to someone who literally doesn’t hear anyone but themselves. I’m not working with him again... I learned I have no patience... It’s best for both of us... I can live with that...
We live in a world with sensitive artists. The music biz is cold... and art is currently very cheap...
If the guy had done the right thing and been on top of his responsibilities I wouldn’t have snapped... Since he wasn’t, I lost it... I’m not missing anything... and it’s all good.. I learned a few lessons.
