There's always a big, frustrating friction when you are the guy that's far more experienced and accomplished playing with amateurs who are clueless at what it takes to do it right. Been there. If at all possible, 86 it, and walk away. Short of a whip and a chair and pistol, you won't get them in line.
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Honest opinions please... A rant.. Kinda...
- Thread starter DrayMiles
- Start date
I agree, but I was playing standards... I was taking any gig that allowed me to play the upright bass.
I don't think of myself as an upright player because I spent so long playing electric, so if there was a chance to go through the standards and woodshed "in the moment.." so to speak, I would take it...
Now, I'm happy to stay home and go through Simandl 1 and 2 until a good gig comes up... Or a less stressful one...
I was going up to NY several times a month for awhile gigging in the Village... But, not lately...
Your rant is good but should have been done at the time of the failed rehearsal and in front of everyone else. Email after the fact won’t work.
Never incite someone to quit when you can just fire them.
Never incite someone to quit when you can just fire them.
I'm right there with you on that sentiment. Covid has obviously decimated our business. At this point, the only band I can get work with as things open up is just not what I would gravitate to normally (and I'm not talking about style). But in the end, they're good people, they're gradually getting gigs, and it keeps me active. So yeah, I'll dip the toe into that hot tub.
NOW yer talkin'!!
I could NOT disagree more with this statement.
"Praise in public. Punish in private." is what a leader (not a dictator) does.
it was a bit harsh yes. I would've just written "this isn't for me. I'm bowing out" and been done with it (or fired the 'offender' if you are the band leader -- I couldn't tell).
but yes, it was pretty much laying him out in front of everyone. I'm surprised he didn't just quit
but yes, it was pretty much laying him out in front of everyone. I'm surprised he didn't just quit
If possible is correct. This is a lot tougher to make happen as a lot of pros are already working and not available.
I’ve seen Whiplash. I can’t imagine a teacher that abusive lasting very long. Throwing stuff at the students, racial slurs, he would never get away with that crap. Drummer Peter Erskine made some commentary on the movie, check it out.
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It's fiction, fictional character, but believe me, somewhere down the history IRL, someone somewhere has been that drill sergeant in music. R. Lee Ermey was another one that played a similar role, even worse, in the film "Full Metal Jacket". He was like that for real. But back to "Whiplash".
If you haven't seen it, it's recommended. Of course it's dramatised. This isolated scenes are of course isolated as a hole, but isolated they seem (are!) very unpleasant, in context, they make sense. J.K. Simmons actually got a oscar reward for best supporting role. Sorry, to do a spoiler for you, but Karma hits back big time, at this drill sergeant in music, later on in the film... you'll see.
"Simmons's performance in Whiplash received widespread critical acclaim and earned him many accolades, including the Academy Award, Golden Globe Award, Screen Actors Guild Award, Critics' Choice Award and BAFTA Award as "Best Actor in a Supporting Role".
Yes, playing really mean guys on film, gets you awarded, lauded, and whatnot. The director actually remembers one of the guys from his youth - a teacher - like that, but I think they've turned up the "demeanor" quite a few turns for nailbiting purposes. It's movies you know, fiction. Made up.
However, I wanted to state to the OP that sooner or later, this will bite you in the butt big time, but then it's to late to regret it or making apologizes to it. OUCH!
EDIT: And as we know, numerous pro musicians have been like that too, IRL. Famous and their heads in the clouds. We've already mentioned Buddy Rich, maybe not that physical, but definitely Ginger Baker. Frank Zappa wrote a whole song about it and released it. "Yo'Mama" it's called. Kind of channeled into something creative instead of going into violence about it.
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What is a pro? someone who is a master at their instrument? not always. Someone who lives off playing music? not in every case...Someone who has played with biggies in the industry? could be but then that is also not ironclad...
A Professional to me is an attitude, a state of preparedness, a certain level of conduct, being on time every time without exception, knowing your parts down cold when you come to rehearsal, competence in music, knowing how to speak too and treat others with decorum, having equipment that is gig-ready, and having the ability to work well with others even in the worst of conditions, and finally commitment.
But what do I know..thats just my $.02
A Professional to me is an attitude, a state of preparedness, a certain level of conduct, being on time every time without exception, knowing your parts down cold when you come to rehearsal, competence in music, knowing how to speak too and treat others with decorum, having equipment that is gig-ready, and having the ability to work well with others even in the worst of conditions, and finally commitment.
But what do I know..thats just my $.02
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Deleted member 368008
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I knew R Lee Ermey.. the man was very kind. I get the army drill sergeant being this way. He is preparing men for war.
But music coaches or sports or anything else.... I cannot fathom being talked to like this.
fwiw,
The sad reality is people see movies like this and think that these people exist. They even think it's common.
I am sure the acting was amazing. But, I have no desire to watch this kind of movie for entertainment. I don't watch horror films either though.
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Deleted member 368008
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No, read the Peter Erskine link I sent. He said "they wouldn't last beyond their first class/lesson they had... " I mean, even back then. Watch the movie, and see what happens to "that guy". BTW sports, is war, if you don't mind me saying, your competing against a protagonist/enemy anyway. And if you think "hey, it's not violent" well then, look at all MMA, boxing, karate, judo yada yada... it's instead of words...
I do think very well such people has existed in one form or another way back. In music education too. Note I say this in past tense. When I saw these scenes in the movie, I just giggled, and I would do that in real life too. I giggle and would be amused by the poor fellow turning out a laughing stock, instead of "ruling by fear". Sad git. His demeanor is counter productive. And if someone would've laughed at him, he would just got worse, and the laughter would grow. BTW I agree with the Peter Erskine interview, that the instructor himself wouldn't be able to find the right tempo himself with just two beats count in. You must have four. He flubs the countdown himself. If I was the dean, or his superior I would yell that into his ear too, see if he can taste his own medicine. He would have turned deaf on that ear perhaps, but such people shouldn't do music anyway....
J.K. Simmons himself did have a music background if I can remember properly. His father was a music teacher 
. Maybe he took inspiration from his old man...? 
This with count ins, a symphonic orchestra conductor waves his baton ONE beat ahead, no tempo, no four count in. A 4th note ahead. Suck on that for a while.He got an Oscar for it, and this is that you have to portray, and play so convincingly, that the audience should feel a certain "unpleasantness" within them, although all is a well executed pretend. You should feel that this is real. Played villains, nasty people gets Oscars all of the time. Otherwise you'll lose all the drama.
Now, we're derailing the thread. I was only suggesting to OP that if you blow your top, it is sooner or later coming back and bite you in the butt. If the OP thought that playing that gig will put him in bad light afterwards for it being a really bad gig, and no one would hire him again afterwards, it's nothing compared to what this demeanor and manner will do. This would hurt him more.
Rightly so, he reached out here, and did have doubts on this matter, and it seems solved by now. He did sense a "maybe I went too far..." feeling anyway, and that's what counts in the first place. This sense of him doubting his own manners should not be underrated. You make amends, apologize, and do not hold grudges, and moves on.
Remember, Charlie Parker got thrown a cymbal at him, on stage, live, in front of an audience.
There is a difference between a players lack of skills as opposed to just being 'lazy' and not caring to learn the material properly, if the guy is really trying but the sound isn't happening then let him off with some positive encouragement for the future and simply move on with someone else. If its laziness then call him out without the expletives and leave out your 'pro status' that only makes you come off like a dick with a super-size ego.
I wonder...
Musicians imo... Already have a delicate psyche... This isolation can’t be good for that...
Regarding my being a ....
I have enough ego to walk into any musical situation and not worry based on experience... No more and no less...
Musicians imo... Already have a delicate psyche... This isolation can’t be good for that...
It was laziness and the guy treating other peoples time with little care. After all, the event was under his company.. So, him playing it was just an ego trip really.
Regarding my being a ....
I have enough ego to walk into any musical situation and not worry based on experience... No more and no less...
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Remember, Charlie Parker got thrown a cymbal at him, on stage, live, in front of an audience.
... and this "Fletcherism" manner did have a profound effect on him...
"... His attempt to improvise failed when he lost track of the chord changes. This prompted Jo Jones, the drummer for Count Basie's Orchestra, to contemptuously take a cymbal off of his drum set and throw it at his feet as a signal to leave the stage. However, rather than discouraging Parker, the incident caused him to vow to practice harder, and turned out to be a seminal moment in the young musician's career when he returned as a new man a year later"
Charlie Parker - Wikipedia
Sometimes it works, most times it doesn't.
Sometimes circumstances cause us to act in an uncharacteristic way. You strike me as being a thoughtful, reasoned, and humble man. Let's just chalk this up to a confluence of events that overwhelmed your emotional capacity at that particular moment.
The new age phrase is I believe: not enough spoons to give. May your life get better and bring you pleasure, happiness, and most importantly, satisfaction.
The new age phrase is I believe: not enough spoons to give. May your life get better and bring you pleasure, happiness, and most importantly, satisfaction.
I hate to keep reposting my experience with a doofus drummer but you asked...
I too was labeled a hard ass after speaking my mind with "dingus".
You were not too tough. You were honest I f he cant deal with it then, Great move on! he now knows what is expected & if he thinks its too much then great you know hes either in denial or doesnt want to put in the work!
My experience was similar, I cut bait & ran, only to be left a passive aggressive V message about being hard to work with! oh well, I still have my dignity! not getting embarassed by some one playing half-assed!GL
