• TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
    Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
    Join free Log in
    Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.

Honest opinions please... A rant.. Kinda...

#121
DrayMiles said:
I heard from a drummer that I was tough... But, these are amateur players. I don’t expect the same discipline, but I DO expect preparedness. My email came after not seeing the guy for 5 years. I took a chance, and had to call in a vocalist and a pianist to cover for this guy’s technical degradation...
It was for the French embassy in DC...
my question is...

Is this too harsh?

Thanks,

D.

“R..


I drove an hour to get to the rehearsal to work on material for your gig carrying the upright bass. We started the tunes and IMO, it was obvious that you didn’t put in the time necessary for you to succeed at being the ONLY chordal instrument in the ensemble. That approach could be deemed a flippant disregard to the responsibility that you have in the position as guitarist. Also, it was quite hurtful for you to struggle through the material, allowing the other members to be quite uninvolved as you struggled to, not only play the tunes from the paper, but struggle to play voicings that were sonically muddy and unclear. I know that J is a wonderful vocalist, but you took a lackadaisical concern to make a first impression. You’re better than that ...

Now after I make the concession of rehearsing Monday with the intent of getting us to a point where we don’t make total pratts of ourselves in front of the audience, you want to rehearse even LATER knowing the amount of work necessary to ensure success?

Are you ———— serious?

Regarding your request for a Monday rehearsal at 7:30…

“No…” I have a previous commitment…

Either we’re going to do this for real, or this is wasting my ——- time and find someone else. I take music too seriously to be associated with a mission guaranteed to crash and burn.

You guys let me know when we’re serious or let’s not waste each others time….

I may not be playing out as much as I used to, but I’m on records in the top league of players, (hmm.. cocky .. I know TB’ers)

I checked, and I’m on more records than your drummer/brother friends and I don’t believe you would do a gig with them with the same intent as you’re doing with me. Is this a lack of respect?

You’re a good guy, but you need to fight that selfish ——… That I’ve seen in you before.

Call me if we’re seriously going to do this right… If we’re going to continue with this amateur ———…. Don’t call me and it’s a wrap…

I don’t have the patience to —— around if we’re not serious.

Love,

D.”

Lay it on me... But, read my bio if you’re inclined to understand where I’m coming from...
Click to expand...

Bro, I got halfway through the first paragraph of that drama before I bailed.
 
  • Like
Reactions: obimark and DrayMiles
#124
Some of the later posts in this thread suggest that the writers either didn't read the whole thread or are just piling on.

OP genuinely sought advice. He obviously had the insight that he might have been over the top with his email. He graciously accepted a pretty thorough rebuke from many of us and has posted several responses agreeing that he was wrong.

Many of those posts are written with as little kindness as the email in question. Minus the profanity, thanks to TB rules.

To the OP, my sympathy for the losses you've experienced. May music be the balm to your soul that it has the potential to be. I see your caution in selecting your next musical endeavor, and applaud your insight and your willingness to make the necessary adjustments to avoid this kind of situation in the future. Best wishes on your journey.
 
  • Like
Reactions: barrenelly, knee_boarder, Mats Orbation and 2 others
#126
buldog5151bass said:
One other thought for @DrayMiles . This letter seemed to have been written as being therapeutic for YOU. Nothing wrong with writing them. Then you toss the note in the trash, and write the REAL one, with a mind on its consequences and effect on the reader. If you had been the recipient of that note, how would You have reacted?
Click to expand...
I have a few letters from music, that could curl milk. I’ve even seen some stuff and violence onstage you wouldn’t believe. So, to me... 5 mins of honesty is better than 30 mins of beating around the bush... Depending... Still, no one in the band said anything... In fact, the vocalist and piano player saved us... imo... But...
I was told that most guys don’t say anything to younger musicians now ... “they can’t take it...” is a direct quote...
Granted, I would be upset... Possibly...
But...
I’ve also had my friend Henry McCullough tell me “I love you... but I’ll kill you...” and it didn’t bother me. It depends on the chemistry between the band. But I won’t be doing it again...
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: DrThumpenstein
#127
DrayMiles said:
I have a few letters from music, that could curl milk. I’ve even seen some stuff and violence onstage you wouldn’t believe. So, to me... 5 mins of honesty is better than 30 mins of beating around the bush... Depending... Still, no one in the band said anything... In fact, the vocalist and piano player saved us... imo... But...
I was told that most guys don’t say anything to younger music now ... “they can’t take it...” is a direct quote...
Granted, I would be upset... Possibly...
But...
I’ve also had my friend Henry McCullough tell me “I love you... but I’ll kill you...” and it didn’t bother me. It depends on the chemistry between the band. But I won’t be doing it again...
Click to expand...

I agree that some times, tough love is the best option. But I don't see your original letter doing anything but driving the recipient away - not inspiring them to get better.
 
#128
Stevorebob said:
Let me come at this another way: There is no place for abusive behavior in the workplace. Somehow, certain industries, organizations and people haven’t been enlightened to this. No, it’s not toughness; it’s abuse. If one has issues with self control or managing life challenges, help is available. Creating a hostile work environment is not an acceptable solution.
Click to expand...
You need to tour with some old timers that thrive in a hostile environment. They told me it makes the gig “spicy...”
I learned to turn the other cheek if my money was on time...
 
#130
Deleted member 368008 said:
I think that not as a first notice. If you give him 3 times, and he hasn't grew a zot or making any progress, then you should be entitled for that acerbic rant. But not as a first one. But in the end, when all is said and done, I don't think anything would help that guy, no matter how harsh or kind (diplomatic) you are, so in the end, it will only turn at your loss. But now, since you've retracted somewhat, it's all worthwhile.
Click to expand...
It’s easier to let him be ... I’ve expended energy before and not everyone wants to be their best. Some peeps just like the hang...
 
#132
My musical achievments are nothing to brag about, but i do know one thing, its more effective to use positive team building, even when a team member is falling short. I prefer to present things positively, even when demanding an improvement. You can demand more effort in a positive way. If this is ineffective, you can also cut ties in a positive manner, which is more likely to lead to opprotunities downstream.
 
#134
DrayMiles said:
I heard from a drummer that I was tough... But, these are amateur players.

D.”

Lay it on me... But, read my bio if you’re inclined to understand where I’m coming from...
Click to expand...
Help me understand, your super good- but your not a "name" player. But you play with amateurs (by your own admission) for what is probably a free gig (correct me if I am wrong and it pays more than $100 each), but you expect the amateurs to automatically be well prepared pros because you need them to be?
If you are a pro and super good, then hire pros, then you can have these expectations if not, then forget about it.
 
  • Like
Reactions: MD-BassPlayer
#135
Benjamin Earl said:
In my opinion, I think it was harsh. It is rare that this would need to be verbalized/emailed to another musician. If you were in charge, then you could have found a replacement. If you are not in charge, then you could have quit. I agree you should make your expectations known, but this email probably did not motivate the musician.
Click to expand...
I have learned there are musicians and there are instrument owners.

The guy mentioned has 50 guitars hanging on his wall in the basement. I feel he’s a good businessman ...
 
#136
Benjamin Earl said:
In my opinion, I think it was harsh. It is rare that this would need to be verbalized/emailed to another musician. If you were in charge, then you could have found a replacement. If you are not in charge, then you could have quit. I agree you should make your expectations known, but this email probably did not motivate the musician.
Click to expand...
In the end... I was in charge. I even took a pay cut to pay the other two. They only let me get away with that because they knew me I believe...
 
#137
buldog5151bass said:
I agree that some times, tough love is the best option. But I don't see your original letter doing anything but driving the recipient away - not inspiring them to get better.
Click to expand...
I can honestly say that he is so self absorbed it didn’t phase him. In fact, he laughed at the next rehearsal. The other folks though... They were like ... ookay.. We better be serious. Still... Wouldn’t do it again...
 
  • Like
Reactions: barrenelly and buldog5151bass
#138
It reads like they were asking for rehearsal time. Not everyone (non-pros) can pick-up tunes without that. They asked for what they needed to be prepared and you snubbed it.

If you cant handle playing with people like that - then don't. That's on you. They might be great when given the right rehearsals. I myself find it opens up different creative doors.

Also, the audience knows when the players are friends/friendly and they prefer it.

D
 
#139
Deleted member 368008 said:
It depends. With people I've grown up with since ages 7-8 and still hang out together we can get the colloquial banter to get third party people totally apalled at the chatter, and banter between us. Ironic, and especially acerbic over the top. And we still do play together, with comments like "stop playing you fat ar***" between us, and so on. NOTE: Always with a tounge in cheeck, and smiley behind it, but not that visbile to other parties, which has scolded us for using such a vocabulary between us. This only works between people that knows each other a long time and very well, and the "acerbics" is definitely mutual. If you're not that close with him, then I think you could back off quite a bit. You can get it across in other wordings. I am exactly like you, won't suffer fools gladly, but you don't have to go that acerbic "Whiplash" with him, although he is a gtrd. ;)





You're like him, Fletcher, but in mail/text only. Yes, quite a bit too harsh, if you're not that close like above, with him. But who am I to speak, I may not have the same pedigree, track record that you got? ;) But, by and large, be wary, and cautious, because all this can come firing back at you at some time later on, when you meet "Fletcher" above in the videos who thinks exactly the same about you. Keep that in mind. Either you can taste your own medicine or not.
Click to expand...

Do people do what the guy in the movie did in real life?
I haven't seen the movie. When I was told about the demeaning nature, I really had no desire.
Maybe I am old, but where I grew up if you did that to someone you would probably end up in a shallow grave.
I really hope people aren't treated that way in real life.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Mats Orbation
#140
trickyric said:
My take on this is pretty basic.
If you want out, just quit.
If you don't, have a polite conversation face to face with the guy who recruited you about your concerns.
Going scorched earth has no place in both professional or polite society.
The cursing and self aggrandizing makes you look like an obnoxious jerk. I am guessing you are probably not, since this guy reached out to you to join him.
JMHO
Click to expand...
At least I didn’t do a Ginger Baker and throw a cymbal at him! Words hurt... but Zildjian decapitates.
 
  • Like
Reactions: barrenelly, knee_boarder, Mats Orbation and 2 others

Latest posts

Top Bottom
Back