How do I count these measures?

[FenderB]

Mushroo:

Good work, mush.

Watch out, you have a student not paying attention to your hard work. I like when people do us the favor of thinking and understanding in addition to just rattling off questions that we take time to answer, I'm sure you agree! Call me old fashioned.

Here, he was asking about the notation difference between measures 10 and 11, not 7 and 11, as you are addressing in reply. He confused you (and me) with the use of the word "tie." So, he's asking why there is a [bar?] present in 10 (between 3 and &) but not 11 (between the &of 2 and 3). What's weird is that he then said he understood your explanation which didn't answer his question because his question was a little unclear.... but whatever... I don't like when people don't take the time read the answers they ask for when someone kindly takes the time to write!

So please confirm for me/us:

1) Lets get the terminology. Please clarify what we call the connector between two eighth notes (or 16ths, etc). I know that when they are separated they have flags but, in 40 years, I've never contemplated what to call the connector between notes!

2) I imagine by deduction from your earlier explanation, the reason for not "putting a bar" between the 8ths here is for the same reason as not using a quarter note across the &of2 and 3- that is, to readily make visible the midpoint of the measure- which you kindly addressed earlier for OP.

Ant I read his answer and fully understood what he had explained to me. It wasn't what I asked but I didn't see any sense in making an issue out of it. My question was concerning the "bar" at the top that connects two 1/8th notes. I'm guessing Mushroo simply misunderstood my poorly worded question, but I learned something from him I didn't know. I have appreciated his and everyone else who have taken the time to answer my question. So Ant here's the deal, given you don't like people like me the next time you see a question from me...don't read it.

 

[FenderB]

Subdivide.

Think continuous eighth notes in your head. Say 1,2,3..1,2..1,2,..1 out loud for the seventh measure, 1,2,3,..1..1..1,2..1 for the eleventh measure. When you can do that, play a note every time you say "1" and you'll be playing the correct rhythm.

Carl that is very interesting, I'll certainly give that a try. Thanks.

 

[Nickweissmusic]

Thanks Nick, I saw a YT video on counting this way but I have trouble putting it into practice.

Then keep practicing it! I am dead serious, put some serious practice time into getting better at "one e and a" counting. If you can speak it, you can play it. Great bass players are always speaking their lines... so are great conductors, great trombonists, etc. Your voice is nothing more than an instrument that you can control better than a bass, because you've been practicing it since the day you were born. If you spent 10 minutes a day "sight speaking" rhythms you'd definitely see improvement. Sightreadingfactory.com and it's app are an incredible resource, well worth the $35 yearly fee, and no, I have no affiliation with them. Unlimited sigtreading exercises at all levels. Start at level 1 and move up, it's never been easier to knock out these kinds of problems.

 

[FenderB]

the wikipedia list of musical symbols is actually quite good.

BARS are narrow vertical lines that separate measures, and do not indicate notes.
TIES are curved horizontal lines connecting note heads (when notes are different pitches they are slurs)
BEAMS are what we call the thick horizontal straight lines that group notes together

beams and ties are conventionally used to clarify where the subdivision pulses occur
so in 4/4 beams /ties help identify groups that occur within one of the four quarter note pulse
if phrase 'crosses' that subdivision, the beams *should* be broken

of course that doesn't stop thoughtless composers and unmindful publishers from producing poor notation.
Quarter notes that cross the subdivision are annoying to me, I would have preferred this:

Invalid Link Removed

It's very clear where the downbeats go in this case

Yes, I agree. Your way is much clearer to read in #7 but I have trouble following the count in #11. Thanks.

 

[Mushroo]

I was a little bit confused, but think I understand now.

"Bars" are the vertical lines that divide the staff into measures. In this song, each measure has 4 beats, because the time signature is 4/4. In casual conversation, musicians often say "bar" as a synonym for "measure." For example, "play a 4-bar intro" means a 4-measure introduction.

"Beams" are the horizontal lines that connect adjacent eighth notes (or smaller, like 16th notes, 32nd notes, etc., basically anything with a "flag" on its note stem). There are certain conventions/traditions how beams are written, to make the music easy to sight read. Typically we don't connect beams across that imaginary half-measure line between beats 2 and 3. That is why, in measures 10 and 11, the F# and G# are not connected with a beam. We want beat 3 (the G#) to be visually obvious.

 

[FenderB]

Then keep practicing it! I am dead serious, put some serious practice time into getting better at "one e and a" counting. If you can speak it, you can play it. Great bass players are always speaking their lines... so are great conductors, great trombonists, etc. Your voice is nothing more than an instrument that you can control better than a bass, because you've been practicing it since the day you were born. If you spent 10 minutes a day "sight speaking" rhythms you'd definitely see improvement. Sightreadingfactory.com and it's app are an incredible resource, well worth the $35 yearly fee, and no, I have no affiliation with them. Unlimited sigtreading exercises at all levels. Start at level 1 and move up, it's never been easier to knock out these kinds of problems.

Thanks Nick, I'll have to look into that site. I've been playing drums for about 3 years and bass for about a year. I know how to read drum music and count and have been working on reading notation. It's getting a little easier but when I run across something like this it throws me. But I agree 100% that it just takes time and lots of practice. Appreciate the help.

 

[FenderB]

I was a little bit confused, but think I understand now.

"Bars" are the vertical lines that divide the staff into measures. In this song, each measure has 4 beats, because the time signature is 4/4. In casual conversation, musicians often say "bar" as a synonym for "measure." For example, "play a 4-bar intro" means a 4-measure introduction.

"Beams" are the horizontal lines that connect adjacent eighth notes (or smaller, like 16th notes, 32nd notes, etc., basically anything with a "flag" on its note stem). There are certain conventions/traditions how beams are written, to make the music easy to sight read. Typically we don't connect beams across that imaginary half-measure line between beats 2 and 3. That is why, in measures 10 and 11, the F# and G# are not connected with a beam. We want beat 3 (the G#) to be visually obvious.

Yes I'm sorry I used the wrong terminology, I meant "beams" not bars. Your explanation clears that up. Thanks.

 

[mambo4]

Your way is much clearer to read in #7 but I have trouble following the count in #11. Thanks.

where ties are involved, one trick I often use is to ignore them until I have the rhythm down ,
then go back and incorporate them, which is really just a matter of not plucking that second tied note

 

[FenderB]

where ties are involved, one trick I often use is to ignore them until I have the rhythm down ,
then go back and incorporate them, which is really just a matter of not plucking that second tied note

Good idea, thanks.

 

[Mechanical]

Register for www.noteflight.com.

It's free.

 

[Josh Kneisel]

1 & 2 & 3 & 4 &..... on the &

 

[Don Kasper]

Good question. It's been a few years since I worked in music publishing, and my memory is hazy, so please don't take this as a definitive answer. IIRC, when notating odd time signatures, there is flexibility in how the notes are grouped, depending on the composer's intent. For example, one song in 5/4 might be subdivided 3+2, while another is subdivided 2+3.

A "broken" bar line can be used to visually (group) and indicate the subdivision of an Odd Meter measure.
Here is Take Five - usually felt "3 + 2".
Or, the composer can write the Time Signature as "3 + 2" (over) "4" - to convey the grouping of the 5 quarter notes.
Tha+nks.

 

[lz4005]

I'm beginning to see (hear) that 40hz. Thanks.

He's absolutely right.

For things like blues and rock sometimes trying to write out the nuances of feel just doesn't work well. You can end up with a mess of bars and ties, etc, when 8th notes and a reference recording would be a much better road map for learning the song.

Just remember that when there's a difference between what the paper says and what sounds right, go with your ears.

 

[Blackjac97]

If possible, I always try to "show" the downbeat(s), (especially if they are not "played"), when writing syncopated rhythms.
Here is how I would notate those 2 measures.
Notice how you can clearly "see" the downbeat on beats 3 & 4.
Happy Counting!
View attachment 1088070

I was going to say exactly this. It's so much easier to read two tied eighth notes than one quarter note when it starts on the off beat.

 

[Mushroo]

I was going to say exactly this. It's so much easier to read two tied eighth notes than one quarter note when it starts on the off beat.

I agree. That said, the pattern eighth-quarter-eighth is generally "allowed" in standard notation, so long as it starts on beat 1 or 3. (But not if the pattern starts on beats 2 or 4; that would be considered awkward to read by most sight readers.)

 

[Blackjac97]

I agree. That said, the pattern eighth-quarter-eighth is generally "allowed" in standard notation, so long as it starts on beat 1 or 3. (But not if the pattern starts on beats 2 or 4; that would be considered awkward to read by most sight readers.)

I know it's allowed. I don't like it.

 

[FenderB]

He's absolutely right.

For things like blues and rock sometimes trying to write out the nuances of feel just doesn't work well. You can end up with a mess of bars and ties, etc, when 8th notes and a reference recording would be a much better road map for learning the song.

Just remember that when there's a difference between what the paper says and what sounds right, go with your ears.

I agree Iz. Thanks for the post.

 

[BassUrges]

I am in no way a master sightreader or music teacher.

But I note two things here:

1) The beat you're struggling with here (and its cousin, with dotted eighths and synchopated 16ths) is common in literally all genres. My children run into in classical piano and guitar, and you'll see it in rock, blues, funk, wherever. So it's worth some effort to master.

2) While I agree that listening is a great way to nail a tricky line, there is satisfaction and learning to be had in learning to play it right from the sheet music, especially when you pull it off without bothering to count it out. So personally, I'd try to get it with a metronome before turning on a recording.

 

[DavC]

the measure still has just 4 beats ... as in 4/4 ... or if your break it all down to Eighth notes ,... you'll still count out 8 - 8's ... 1 & 2 & 3 & 4 & .... the ' dots ' and/or 'ties' shift your playing to the & ( ands ) ... counting remains the same ..

 

[FenderB]

I am in no way a master sightreader or music teacher.

But I note two things here:

1) The beat you're struggling with here (and its cousin, with dotted eighths and synchopated 16ths) is common in literally all genres. My children run into in classical piano and guitar, and you'll see it in rock, blues, funk, wherever. So it's worth some effort to master.

2) While I agree that listening is a great way to nail a tricky line, there is satisfaction and learning to be had in learning to play it right from the sheet music, especially when you pull it off without bothering to count it out. So personally, I'd try to get it with a metronome before turning on a recording.

I would really like to get it down by counting but I find it a little bit easier to follow along with the song. I'm going to keep working on it both ways. Thanks.