How do I help bandmates improve timing?

[faulknersj]

Real talk…if they can’t play to a click then they can’t play to a click…impossible to tell when or if they will ever be able to.

Sounds like you are ready to keep an eye out for opportunities with some better players…

 

[Hawk256]

If the drummer can't play with a click track after 6 months, you have a major issue. If the drummer was good or could at least follow the click track, no one else would need to hear it.

 

[eniac]

To faulkner's point, one could waste weeks or months or years waiting for the other members to improve to the point where things are non-embarrassing. Of course there's no law mandating how one spends his/her free time, but there's one big issue: The longer one waits, the greater the probability the perfect opportunity (or at least a better one) will slip by unnoticed because you (OP) were so laser-focused on getting raw beginners to improve, to the exclusion of all else.

As for the other guys, you might actually be doing them a favor by cutting loose immediately, and not being shy about telling them the reason. Oftentimes such a "shock treatment" can wake people up to the reality of how inadequate they are.

Finally, I believe some people are just not suited to the particular instruments they're trying to play, and time and practice won't change that fact. (I've played with several drummers and two keyboard players who fit that category.) So, one has to take that possibility into account when deciding whether or not to stick around waiting for others to improve. IMO though, that's just gambling, but in a different form.

 

[Geogio]

If you want to be diplomatic about it you might try recording a rehearsal.

Playbacks are humbling... chances are everyone will understand or realize that everyone is overplaying.

 

[Bass Motifs]

Click track and IEMs? Pretty complicated. Just play as a band together, lots, and find your groove that way.

IME it takes some months for a music group to gel. Then you start to get a sound.

 

[lark_z]

The big questions come first:

Do the others recognize the issue?

Are they actually interested in improving?

If the answer is no then it really doesn't matter what you do next, it's not going to work. There are lots of ways to improve your time both as an individual and as a group, but it takes commitment.

Assuming they are interested, the easiest thing to do is record rehearsals and listen back with a judgement-free conversation on when things aren't quite right. Playing along to to a record can also help, as it really spotlights when someone isn't where they are supposed to be.

In the end everyone has to do their homework. If you woodshed with your metronome every day and nobody else does then eventually you're going to pick up on stuff they are missing, and you'll have to decide whether to pace yourself to match them or move on to other people with a similar level of commitment to yours.

Boy, do I agree with this. I played with a guitarist/singer for a couple of years. He has played by himself mostly for decades. He had a very fluid sense of time, always slowing down during solos. He couldn't hear it and refused to practice with a metronome. So, I just lived with it.

 

[JazznFunk]

Talking about it is often futile without something to reference. People will tune out or diminish the degree of the problem. So - Record yourselves. Get a simple Zoom H2N recorder - it's a wise investment that will pay dividends for a long time. I've had mine for over 15 years and have recorded hundreds of rehearsals and live gigs. The microphones never lie. Before that, I'd haul my Tascam 4-track and a couple of room mics and a bag of tapes to rehearsals. Been doing that since the first year or 2 I started playing and recording with bands.

Listen to the rehearsal as a group without instruments in hand. See if the offending parties hear what's going wrong. Pay attention to where YOU go wrong as well - because none of us are perfect. Then, it's time to ease into constructive criticism and observation. Encourage your bandmates to practice to a metronome at the same tempo as the song(s) in question. As with any habit, changing it often involves being made aware of the issue, recognizing it, and having a desire to change once you become fully cognizant of the issue(s) at hand. But as with anything, a person cannot change unless they WANT to change or improve. I personally cannot live with a drummer who has sloppy time. It makes us work overtime to try and 'fix' things and glue the band together to compensate.

 

[Ritter667]

Hit him with your rhythm stick!

 

[Elijah N]

I like the suggestions of having everyone listen to recordings. We have recorded some tracks at rehearsal before and sent them out to people, but haven't spent much time listening as a group. I'll get us to listen to some recordings at rehearsal and see if that helps.

I also like the idea of ditching the IEMs for now. I agree that the IEMs are not helping us hear each other. Without amps and volume in the room, it feels like everyone is off strumming in his own little world, each world with its own unique rules of timing and rhythm. One of our guitar players does not own an amp, but I will see if we can ditch the IEMs by having him play either my acoustic guitar or my guitar amp.

 

[NocoLaw]

Good call on all of that. One other thing to try during rehearsal is to point your speaker(s) directly at the drummer. I was playing in a pickup charity band (just played periodic fundraisers - most of us were in other bands), and the front man walked over and turned one of my cabs toward the drummer at the rehearsal, then he brought him a monitor and gave him a heavy bass mix for the event. It’s like he couldn’t listen to me and play, but when he could feel it, there was noticeable improvement.

 

[Thunderthumbs73]

I have played bass for a year and a half. Six months ago, I joined a self-proclaimed beginner band figuring that with a year of bass experience, I should start with a beginner band. I am not a beginner musician, and my musical background is in classical violin plus a few years of guitar lessons. I have hit the woodshed consistently since picking up bass and in my mind the instrument chose me and not the other way around. My goal when showing up for rehearsal is to play my part note-for-note. Six months in, our timing as a band still needs improvement. We are playing with click tracks through IEMs with individual IEM mixes for everyone. Our drummer and one of our guitarists are not quite staying on the click track and sometimes miss things like transition bars of 2/4. I like all of the band members personally and everyone brings a great attitude to rehearsal. Is there any way I can help fix these timing problems? I want to play shows and gigs and I feel that some of us are individually ready to do that, but we are simply not ready to play out as a group until fixing these timing problems.

I think one way to fix these timing problems is literally PRACTICE playing with the click tracks through IEMs. That DOES NOT have to be a whole band endeavor. Provided there is enough harmonic information or parts on the tracks it would be very productive for the drummer in particular and one of those guitarists to practice with those click tracks by themselves. If that must occur at a band rehearsal space that does not belong to the drummer or the guitarist, then so be it, until the problem is rectified.

The problem of missing 2/4 is simply about not knowing the song well enough to know when the moment is coming and to mentally prepare accordingly for that. The problem of dragging or speeding up is a discipline thing and probably best addressed by using the technology that bears it out most clearly and which will continue to be used. On a personal level, EVERY musician has the ability to take note of as-recorded tempos, set a click track or metronome in ear buds and turn it up to balance with their instrument. And then practice with it, relentlessly if necessary. Then there's the integrity of honest reporting, and that's where a collective band practice bears it out.

I think musicians can think of time the WRONG way, and yes, there is a wrong way. And that wrong way creates issues with keeping time and if not exactly metronomic time, the FEEL of the in-tempo time they're keeping. For instance, if you're thinking of time as quarter notes while EVERYTHING in a pop-punk song is minimum 8th notes and at times 16th notes for fills and accents and such, then you are thinking about time WRONG, because the lowest rhythmic denominator IS at least the 8th note, and because you are thinking about it wrong, you are going to A.) likely drag not rush your playing, B.) you will come in late to entrances and exit late, and C.) what you play, even if technically correct, will not FEEL right either.

When a musician thinks about time correctly, it may not immediately fix a problem, but it will go a long way to helping the timing/rhythm/feel problem be less acute.

 

[Topkat13]

I hate it when my mates don't show up on time.

 

[Elijah N]

Does playing with simpler pieces yield similar results? Like if you guys decided to cover Brainstew or In Bloom, would they still have timing issues?

Asking just to narrow down if it's fundamental timing, or just with certain pieces. If it's just those/harder pieces, then woodshedding or staying on it should yield improvement. If it's fundamentally bad timing....yeesh, might wanna start shopping around

Simple pieces that are 4-on-the-floor with minimal syncopation still have some timing problems and dragging, but not as bad as more complicated and more syncopated pieces.

 

[Lefty Joe]

As a bassist, you never need to play below your level. You can always play with musicians better than yourself, because there is always a shortage of bassists (let alone good ones), so better musicians will tolerate your lesser ability as long as you are on pitch, on time, and on key. This will also ffwd your own development, because there's nothing so inspiring as playing with great musicians -- and nothing so dull as playing with those who can't even keep time.

Does that sound harsh? I'm not saying you can't play with a beginner band ... but you've already identified a fundamental building block of music which is obvious to you, but obscure to them; by definition, you are already past these guys. If you're content just being social with people who make noises with instruments, that's fine -- otherwise, move on.

 

[Bass Motifs]

... as long as you are on pitch, on time, and on key.

That's about 98% of bass really. Or at least our "one job". Harder than it looks to get those country basslines perfect

 

[el murdoque]

I made an observation with a beginner band that shares our band room. We had rehearsal scheduled and they played just before us, I arrived a bit early and they let me sit in the room and listen.

Everyone was playing the same song in the same speed, but also, everyone was in their own bubble. Some of them because they were beginners and needed all their concentration getting through the song without messing up and some of them because they have overinflated egos and think the world, and therefore the band, revolves around them.
This created slight gaps, and a drifting feeling. It took me a while to realize what's wrong. No one in the room listened to the song. Everyone only had ears for their own instrument.

This is an important thing to learn as early as possible.
A beginner can be totally stressed for the fear of ruining the song for everyone else, and therefore play extra tight, with a laser focus on their own playing. By this, they will ruin the song - with good intentions. It's important to listen to the song, to what's going on in the room.


With an in ear mix, you can of course set everything nice and tight, and then boost yourself by 9dB, so you have a perfect impression of all the finer nuances of your playing, but it's actually impossible to listen to the song.
I did, for a while, experiment with that and changed my preferences. I usually started with a nice mix where everything is present, then raise the kick and snare by 3dB and the bass by 6dB, so I had a mix that made me play in perfect sync with the drummer, listen to my bass tone and still have the band mix present. Nowadays, I have my in ears set to a nice, balanced mix. The way I'd mix it for the audience, would I do FOH.
Less me, more band. I'm grooving much better this way.

 

[JazznFunk]

This is an important thing to learn as early as possible.
A beginner can be totally stressed for the fear of ruining the song for everyone else, and therefore play extra tight, with a laser focus on their own playing. By this, they will ruin the song - with good intentions. It's important to listen to the song, to what's going on in the room.

It's part of the learning process for sure, and it doesn't happen overnight. Training one's ears to multi-task takes time to develop. I know some 'professionals' who still haven't mastered it.

 

[eniac]

I don't know if this helps this discussion, and sorry if someone's already mentioned it, but James Brown once told Bootsy to hit that "1" beat right on the money each and every time. What he meant was that the "1" was the timing anchor, so to speak.

In one of her videos, Carol Kaye said she got (ahem...) "spoken to" by a producer for rushing the beat. She said she spent a day or two with a metronome and the problem was fixed.

 

[TomB]

I was in a band way back in 1973 and we had a drummer that just couldn’t keep from speeding up, our lead guitarist who just got back from the Berklee School of Music was a stickler for these type of things got so frustrated that one day he showed up with his metronome and promptly taped it to the microphone with duct tape so it was coming out of our little PA system, it didn’t help.

This is the thing. Some drummers simply can’t keep time. I’m not sure how you can help, beyond making sure they’re aware and hoping they’re into exploring fixes. If you can still lock together and tolerate a little tempo drift, that may be the best you can hope for. Sorry to be pessimistic, but in 55 years of playing in bands, I can probably count the truly accurate drummers on two hands. …and fixing the tempo repeatedly on the gig can get to be a lot of work for a bassist.

 

[5StringBlues]

The taser! Use the taser!