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how do you play behind the beat

I confess as well to being confused by the concept of the bass and drums both playing behind the beat.

It's much more common IME anyway, that the drums set the beat and the bass plays either slightly ahead or slightly behind to define the "pocket". My personal, natural inclination is to lag the drummer ever so slightly, although admittedly this may be a learned response since virtually every drummer I've played with who has time issues, errs toward the rushing side. Ergo I have acclimated to playing behind the drum beat attempting to keep tempos under control. Meaning that when I am paired with a drummer who actually has solid time, and the song is uptempo, it can be a pretty big challenge for me because I have to play well "ahead" of where I'm accustomed relative to the drums.

As someone else asked, if the bass and drums are both "behind" the beat, who is setting the beat? And what does the final product sound like when this happens?
 
Maybe I'm totally wrong in my description. The one who is on the beat the entire time is the guitarist, however if the drums and bass are both on the beat all the time the song loses it's ragtime swing feel. So technically we're trying to get a "guitarist ahead of the beat" feel while keeping a "laid back/unrushed groove" feel. I can start off in the right pocket, but it's so fast I have a tendency to catch up to the guitarist. I figured the best way to get it down was to start off slow and exaggerated with the metronome and bring it up to speed gradually, but my lack of experience with behind the beat playing feels like a huge stumbling block. I figured you would all have some different examples and explanations to help me get the feel, and you do. I'm doing better already. :) I realize it's a confusing situation, but thanks for all the responses. If anyone has anymore questions about it I'll try to explain it in another way. :)
 
When I had students ask me about this, it was always tricky... Like explaining how to be a "pocket" player.

The best way I've found to describe it is... "You don't play every single beat a millisecond slow... you pick the key beats in a measure to slack on... to hang back just a touch on the whole beats (1,2,3,4) and push the "ands" a bit. Not quite a shuffle, but a groove.

Yes, it's hard to explain... but you know it when you're doing it.
 
I have posted for concise explanantions on this before, and it seems like a challenging concept to articulate.

I hate to admit it but I think it's a feel thing more than a specific (notateable) rhythmic thing.

When I am asked to play behind the beat, I take a deep breath and tell myself I'm going to play this thing with as relaxed a feel as I can. I stop thinking of specific beats and approach things as larger phrases. It usually does the trick.

I think the observation that you pick and choose which beats are actually dragged is very insightful. The phrases gotta start and end tight, but you can allow some fluidity getting from point to point.
 
Listen, Play along, and record yourself playing with music that involves playing behind the beat. Like Reggae. Or some d'angelo:

YouTube - D'ANGELO THE ROOT

As well as stuff that falls ahead of the beat. Such as Punk, Red Hot Chilli Peppers. To get a nice bit of contrast.
In the link above the bass is so far behind the beat, it creates a flam effect with the drums.
I think you have to feel and not think this kind of thing. It's hard to get and easy to lose...

On that particular track, the laid-back feel comes from the programmed drums. The Rim shot is placed ahead of beat so it gives to the kik and the bass a "behind the beat" illusion ;-)

That is an old trick from hip-hop producers.

So instead of delaying everything on the tracks you push ahead the HH or the snare and you've got the same effect.

This is actually in relation with my first post when I suggested to rely on the 2 and 4 (snare) to get the laid-back feel. Why? because the 2&4 is where the groove is at!!! Like on the D'Angelo, the snare programmed ahead of the beat affects the whole track feel.

But I wouldn't do this on that particular track because it would do the opposite, it would make you play ahead and rush and I'm pretty sure that the snare was on the beat when they did cut that track and was move later on.
 
Fergie, your illustration is about the best I've seen for communicating the concept. I'm definitely going to get my friend Roland* out and start working on that kind of vocalizing, eventually adding the bass, to see how THAT feels. If you have the time/inclination, I'd love to see a video of you and a metronome that demonstrates where you're putting the "click" in relation to the syllables. I'm 95% sure I'm with you, but there's always that nagging 5% :-)

:D


Thanks and glad you "get" it. never worry about 5% call that the +- factor if you will of what you are allowed to work to.

To practice timing we first have to understand that it is a representation of feel, so as many are posting here about how can bass and drums be "behind the beat" at the same time, that is because it is everyones job to relate the time that plays, bass and drums do not carry the responsibility for time, they just represent it, and drums more so because of the nature of the instrument. In modern bands the job has been handed over to the bass and drums because of the number of members a band may have, some one has to do it and as bass and drums represent feel more than other instruments the job developed in to theirs. Remember in a room you can feel bass even though you may not distinguish what it is playing due to modern amplifcation.

As i said it is the count at the start, the setting up of the time that will be important because that is the reference that everyone relates to in order to displace any individual timing feels.

The BE^AT idea is to show as a visual reference to reinforce the feel. Another one to use when practicing is syncopation. But you hear syn co pa tion and more over you can say syn co pa tion. This represents the four beats of say 4/4

So you put the beat on syn of syncopation every time and you have in effect the first beat played only of every bar, you just play the note as you say the first syllable of syncopation.
This helps you feel where the note is in relation to the four syllable word of syncopation. You can obviously use every syllable to create a straight beat that fills the bar or use anyone of the four to create a pattern. The idea is not to always see timing as numbers but as a feeling.
If i take syncopation as a word as draw out certain syllables i can change the feel of it, like for example the first syllable syc.
If i extend the feel of it to ssssyn, then the copation part is a little more after the beat giving it a "shuffle" feel rather than a straight feel. So it feels as it is said, sssyn copation sssyn copation sssyn copation.

When you work on such ideas any words with syllables will do so long as the repeat in time with the beats you are working on, the idea is to use the syllables to represent the beats and timings. As the words used are the same length with the same syllables, then the timing will always be consistant. Sme times 1-2-3-4 is not always the best way to represent feel within a timing for players learning music. Sometimes it best to learn to feel then count, harness what is natural then work out why it is so.

Any work on timing is ideally done slow because once you have learned it all you do is increase the tempo. You have to work slow to give your brain a chance to internalize what it is doing, then once that has happened the tempo of it does not matter.

I come from the Classical end of music where BPM was not an issue. We use terms like Largo, Adagio, Andante, Allegro to describe music tempo. These put us in a "ball park" area for timing and they also suggest a feeling of how the music should be played. BPM is exacting, it is a target to play to, so the task of playing is become BPM not the feel. Adagio can be anwhere between 60-80 BPM giving the conductor or the piece ( it may be in a tigher field than that, but i am giving this as a reference that adagio is a feeling of time, not a target number to play to). So is you are used to playing in say the lower end of this feeling and then come across a conductor that feels it at the other end, then playing it is not a problem because you can reprsent the time, feel and any time sig change because you have internalized what needs to be done.

When working with a metronome remember to slow it down and work on 4th, 8th or 12th beat of what you play rather than using it to dictate every beat. Like Adagio, give yourself room to feel the tempo as well as play it. BPM is a modern thing in music, which although i understand the need for it, i think it tend to move a players focus of what is important.....the music.
 
I confess as well to being confused by the concept of the bass and drums both playing behind the beat.



As someone else asked, if the bass and drums are both "behind" the beat, who is setting the beat? And what does the final product sound like when this happens?

The beat is the clock or meter of the song, it exists without anyone actually playing on it. Where each individual places their hit with respect to that clock is what determines 'behind', 'on', or 'ahead'


A great , simple example of this is in 'Bennie and the Jets' by Elton John. Listen to any of the full band versions - the drums and bass are locked but behind the actual meter of the song
 
The beat is the clock or meter of the song, it exists without anyone actually playing on it. Where each individual places their hit with respect to that clock is what determines 'behind', 'on', or 'ahead'

^ Spot on. Although with Bennie, you could probably write out how the drum and bass parts are behind the beat (the distance is great enough). I get the sense that behind, on top of or ahead can't really be notated. Behind is a swagger.
 
^ Spot on. Although with Bennie, you could probably write out how the drum and bass parts are behind the beat (the distance is great enough). I get the sense that behind, on top of or ahead can't really be notated. Behind is a swagger.

Yeah good point about "Bennie" - I think it has to do with the sloooooow tempo of that song.

When I was first learning to play behind the beat, I had to trick myself by sliding into the note - hard to explain but it was a way to slightly delay where the note actually landed. Once I got how that felt into my head it was easier to recreate without the sliding motion
 
Yeah - fretless makes it kind of a natural thing to approach. One of my band's songs has a repeated figure in D that I slide into: D D D A B ---> D. The 1 falls somewhere near the -> and I wil actually accent that a bit with increased finger pressure, but I don't land on the D until just after the beat. What makes it more subtle is that I usually don't pluck the first D when I get to it; I allow the energy generated from the slide to establish the first D in the figure.
 
The reason the drummer wants me to be behind the beat with him during the verse pattern is it makes it sound less like punk and less like we're rushing while keeping that intense drive. I know it works too, because I can hit the sweet spot, I just can't seem to stay there.

It sounds to me like the key here is to get a relaxed feel. I read an interview with "Ready" Freddie Washington years ago where he talked about feeling everything in half time.

This is something I use alot when going for that behind the beat feel. Try feeling the pulse of the chorus all the way through the tune. Get your whole body into it and really try to feel the half time through the verse.

What should happen is that you will stay relaxed through the verse while the band rages around you and then they will merge back into the half time chorus with you leading them by the hand.

Great feeling when it works :D
 
Hey everyone. So I'm in this band, and there's a song we're doing where the drummer wants me to play with him behind the beat. I understand the concept, but the song is pretty fast (quarter note = about 200 so we're talking milliseconds here) and I can't seem to stay behind the beat. I looked around a bit, but can't find any great tips on technique. Does anyone know of some good ways to practice playing behind the beat? Thanks.
It sounds to me like your drummer is talking complete nonsense.
 
Examples:

If the snare is slightly late. Most people will not percieve it. Most musicians won't percieve it. Feels easy going. Feels slow. Feels unhurried. Feels like someone is holding us back. Feels open. Eeeerrrrr Uhhmmmmm like blues.

If the snare is slightly early. Most people will not percieve it. Most musicians won't percieve it. Feels energetic. Feels fast. Feels like we are in a hurry. Feels frantic. Feels like we are being pushed. Feels like uuuuhh mmmmm like rock.

Both songs could be at the same tempo but make the audience feel two different ways.

Hard concept to learn. Even harder concept to master.
 
IMHO, the drums are always "the" beat..whatever tempo he plays, that "is" the beat...if he wants you to play behind him, that is certainly possible. You aren't playing slower than him, you are playing the same speed, just slightly behind him...like 2 cars going down the road at the same speed, one drving 3 feet ahead or behind the other. I learned to do this by listening to a kick drum mic'd up and played in a big auditorium. I could hear the attack, and the note of the kick lasted around 2 seconds as it decayed in the room. I could play right on that initial attack, and my bass would match the kick, or wait until I heard the attack and play as soon as it hit, making me behind it, and my note would outlast the kick decay....takes just a little practice, but it sounds cool and makes music work right when you get it!