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how do you play behind the beat

#41
+1 on differentiating the space between the beats or subdivisions.

The behind the beat feel of a tune to me is all about allowing a little extra time between a certain beat and another. Or a little shorter time for an "on top of the beat" feel.

Random examples to try to make it visual:
"1-2--3-4-" or "1-and--2-and--3-and--4-and--".
Stretching or compressing the time between beats/subdivision by a tiny amount makes an enormous difference in feel.

This way yes, both drums and bass can be locked in and still behind or on top of the beat.
Makes sense?

I realized this a few years back during a recording session with an amazing drummer. We were asked to play a slow 6/8 ballad and make it feel lazy, hangover. He was playing kick on 1, snare on 4 and hi-hat every 1/8. His 1-2-3 and 4-5-6 were perfectly in time and quite even, but the snare on 4 was waaaay behind, basically making beat 3 extra long. Instant lazy/hangover. Brilliant!

b.
 
#45
But I'd like to chime in. "Playing Behind" is an attitude in my opinon. Just like an attitude to "Go Out there and Rock!" is an attitude, or "Really say something on my solo" To play behind is an art of a very controlled, patient dragging of the beat. Some players play that way naturally. Anthony Jackson is a master that comes to mind. Sekou Bunch, Marcus Miller, Nathan East, Alex Al, Dan Lutz are all masters of patiently placing the groove a little behind. here's a fun exercise. Record a track to a drum loop. Just play whatever comes to mind. When you're done, go back and drag the track back 7 ticks. Not a 16th, but if you divide the beat into 256 ticks to each beat or whatever it is logic does...Move it back 7 ticks. Listen. 14 ticks. Listen. 21 ticks listen. Then pan it to one side and pan your live bass to the other and match up with the bass playing 21 clicks behind. then go further back until its so out of the pocket its completely off. But keep grooving. What it does for me is make me more aware of where i am placing the beat and increases my flexibility. Hope someone benefits from this...
Enjoy every note.
 
#47
robass said:
The beat is the clock or meter of the song, it exists without anyone actually playing on it. Where each individual places their hit with respect to that clock is what determines 'behind', 'on', or 'ahead'


I question this declaration, even though I do not necessarily disagree. Unless you are refering to the original count-off of the tune, I can not pretend, nor can can I prove to anyone that there exists a pulse outside of what can be perceived physically by any listener. Forgive me if I misunderstood your post. My imagination gets bound up in a quagmire when presented with this idea, as does the mind of many others, as demonstrated by many of the previous posts.
I do however, do know one thing. If you listen to a bass player who can really lay back without dragging the tempo down,and play along with that players recordings. eventually you will be able to tell the difference between that players note value(because, yes, the entire note value is what you need to be concerned with, not just the attack), and your own. Then, it will become a simple matter of imitation, which will still take some time to master. This is a tricky matter that I think is oft over thought... Just put it where you want it, and to heck with the drummer!
Click to expand...
 
#48
Just like anything it just takes practice.

Its good to practice to a metronome. or just the annoying click of a DAW. Computers are cool in that way.
Playing "Behind the Beat" is just learning how to impose different time signatures.

Just play to a 200 bpm click, people think that it is fast, it is actually rather slow. Half time would be 100bpm so that is slower than common time which is 120 bpm.

But you can impose a 6/8 to 3/4 that is simple. But you can impose
4/4 to 6/8. I forget how it all works but its like playing to a slower bpm which would be like changing time signature...which some say is behind the beat. but you can do the same by playing faster or slower whichever way you want to go.

So 100 bpm in 4/4 is the same amount of 8th notes as 66.6 bpm in 3/4. I think..... so 100 bpm half time would be 50bpm so to impose a 3/4 fell you would play in 4/4 at 66.6 bpm.....
there is better info on the net

anyhoo blah blah I think I'm getting it wrong but just practice to a Metronome and learn how to groove against it in half and full time. and listen to different time signatures with a 2 tone metronome when you hear the accents you can come up with different grooves and be able to play "behind the beat" with it over time.

and then when you have ingrained your brain with perfect timing you can be a timing nazi at practice. most players are far more out of time than they think.
 
#52
I see a few folks mentioning measures in 1/4 notes, not 1/8th notes either.......Try thinking in 1/16th notes.

Use an exercise that will have 16 events in a measure. Use a metronome and start with single notes, 1 for each 1/16th note, select and play only 1 note per measure (even if you do it sequentially), this will help you identify the particular "behind the beat" that you're looking for.

After that, also realize that just because you might be playing in 4/4, does not necessarily mean that you have to just play 4 or 8 notes either............
For example, you take these 16 events in a measure and divide it up over sets of notes, such as, divide three by 16 and you can five sets of three note intervals......Four, four note intervals.....three, five note intervals and so on.......It's a good exercise for breaking up pentatonics too.
 
#53
Jazzdogg said:
Or it could be a matter of failed communication on the drummer's part: IIRC, the OP said the drummer asked him to play with him; perhaps what the drummer was trying to say all along was that the bassist was rushing.
Click to expand...

That was my thought as well. Try to treat is as "not rushing" instead of playing behind a beat.

And another trick: try to envision the beat in another place. Listen for another part in the kick or snare that's a bit later in the beat and move your body accordingly. You're Maybe following that pushing guitar rhytm too much.
 
#54
Someone said this earlier... You don't play every single beat a millisecond slow... you pick the key beats in a measure to slack on... Also from Matthijs, Try to treat it as "not rushing" instead of plying behind a beat.

It's a feel thing. Particular styles of music use it,, blues, rock-n-roll, raggae, etc. Other styles, country and jazz for example don't.

Can't remember where I read this, but it was an article by some famous bass dude and I think it is good for this discussion. He said, try to count the song as slow as possible. If the drummer counts 1234, 1234,, you count 1,, 2,, 3,, 4,, you are playing the same beat,, but counting it different. Your slow count will give you more room to give the song better feel.

To practice this, try with a metronome turned as slow as you can and play around. Set the metronome to 40BPM, and make that your 1. Tap your foot on 1, and count the 234 in your head. I bet $100 that the next metronome beat comes later than you expect.

Me and the lead guitar player in my band are both foot tappers. Before a song, when we are setting a tempo, I notice that his foot is usually going twice as fast as mine. Which is good, cuz he is soloing and doing vocal phrasing type stuff, and I am trying to provide a foundation and feel. It's just different jobs in the band. We have so many country drummers where I'm from, it's hard to find a drummer that "gets it." They all play right on the beat,, which turns into rushing a lot of the time.
 
#55
Rickett Customs said:
I see a few folks mentioning measures in 1/4 notes, not 1/8th notes either.......Try thinking in 1/16th notes.

Use an exercise that will have 16 events in a measure. Use a metronome and start with single notes, 1 for each 1/16th note, select and play only 1 note per measure (even if you do it sequentially), this will help you identify the particular "behind the beat" that you're looking for.

After that, also realize that just because you might be playing in 4/4, does not necessarily mean that you have to just play 4 or 8 notes either............
For example, you take these 16 events in a measure and divide it up over sets of notes, such as, divide three by 16 and you can five sets of three note intervals......Four, four note intervals.....three, five note intervals and so on.......It's a good exercise for breaking up pentatonics too.
Click to expand...
I'm pretty sure but doing that, you're just changing the lower number in a time signature. If you want to double the amount of notes you have, you'd be playing in 4/2. Everyone else could count as they please by just ignoring the extra notes, but OP won't.


...I think.
 
#56
Hey everyone. I saw there were some new replies to this post, so I thought I'd give an update on the situation. I've figured out how to accomplish the task in this song.

First off let me just say that our drummer is far from ignorant about the subject matter. He's extremely knowledgeable about music, and has the chops to put that knowledge into practice. The best way to describe the problem is in the setup of the song. It's a "ragtime" song played at a "punk rock" speed. The tempo is set by the intro guitar riff, which has the required energy, but looses the proper groove. So when the drummer and I come in we have to set that groove by laying back and playing a little behind the beat. Not on every beat, but on the big ones. So if the notes are 1-2-3-4, 1-2-3-&-4-&, we're playing late-late-late-late, late-late-on-on-on-on. This brings back the "ragtime" groove under the "punk rock" tempo set (and kept) by the guitar. Therefore the drums and bass are playing behind the beat together.

The way I got this to happen for myself was to bounce my finger on the string. In other words, I would set my finger on the string on the beat in a bounce, and pluck the note when my finger came back down. The problem was I was getting an extra click every time I played a note. Then I discovered that if I took the bounce away from my fingers, and put it in my feet I got the same outcome minus the extra click. So now I hop with the beat. This keeps the energy up, and enables me to play behind the beat.

In another song we've written I've used the halftime counting method. The song is slow, but has alot of tension, and a rhythmically active bass line. My notes are actually eighth notes, but I count halftime so I think of them as sixteenths. This way I'm relaxed and not rushing. This trick doesn't work for me on the song in the op, but it obviously has its uses.

My hope is that someday, with enough practice, I'll be able to feel these things without having to focus on the tricks, but in the meantime the tricks are working, and my playing has greatly improved. Thanks for all the posts!
 
#57
It's basically the same techniques that horn players, keyboard players use, when faced with a 4/4 time, while playing in 4/4. There's only so much you can do with just 4/4, before actually using "cut" time.

Tupac said:
I'm pretty sure but doing that, you're just changing the lower number in a time signature. If you want to double the amount of notes you have, you'd be playing in 4/2. Everyone else could count as they please by just ignoring the extra notes, but OP won't.


...I think.
Click to expand...
 
#58
It's a feel thing.

To get started, try making larger than normal motions with your right hand so your finger or pick arrives at the string a little bit late. After some practice you'll be able to do it by feel.

Playing ahead or behind the beat is a variation on playing tight in the pocket. You have to get the feel for playing tight before you can get the feel for playing behind.

It also helps to listen for it in some songs. The snare in the popular song "Tighten Up" by Black Keys is an example of playing very behind the beat. I'm sure they sampled it and placed it there digitally.
 

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