That's why I suggested in post 73 that there is no negotiating. If he doesn't take whatever OP decides to offer him, in an already-written, take-it-or-leave-it agreement, they threaten to fold the band. He will take the deal at that point.
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How to fire a guy who, without a doubt, will not take it well?
- Thread starter funkcicle
- Start date
That's why I suggested in post 73 that there is no negotiating. If he doesn't take whatever OP decides to offer him, in an already-written, take-it-or-leave-it agreement, they threaten to fold the band. He will take the deal at that point.
I'm not so sure. A rational person might do as you predict, but from the OP's description, this guy is heavily emotionally invested in the band, as well as at least moderately irrational. Also, it doesn't sound like the band has the funding to offer this guy a sum that is too good to refuse. This guy may well be of the mind set that he'd rather see "his" band go up in flames rather than be paid a few hundred to have it carry on and potentially be successful without him. A Phyricc victory, so to speak.
Yes, the guy may be desparate for cash and so willing to take even a token sum. But don't discount that the guy is such a d-bag that he'd be willing to give up some short term gain rather than permanently relinquishing what he probably sees as his partial intellectual property.
I'm not saying it isn't worth a shot, I just think it isn't certain he'll buy into it.
First, the three of you need to meet together and make sure you are absolutely on the same page. Then see an entertainment lawyer. Who owns the band name? How did you handle songwriting and who owes what for what? etc
If it's at all possible and you haven't gone to press yet, remove his contributions to the album. Just take 'em off, no matter how good they were. You're in a better position if he's not there. Otherwise you'll owe him more money. If you keep his parts, you will owe him money from sales in the future. Best to just cut the cords.
Change the passwords to myspace/kickstarter/band email - even if you think he doesn't know the passwords. Do this right before you all leave to meet with him (see below).
Then, schedule a band meeting in his town - and maybe have him pick a bar to meet at. (That way he's less likely to make a scene.) The three of you should drive together - in the same car, very important - and arrive promptly or even a little early. Wait for him outside. Go inside together, and order a pitcher. You buy. You now have the time it takes to drink one beer to lay it out.
Hand him a check for 1/4 of the kickstarter fund, 1/4 of the band fund at the moment, and any other money you owe him. Tell him you've all given it a lot of thought and you've decided that SM is going to continue as a three piece. Don't let it get personal. You've all had some good times, and you hope to see him around. Maybe flatter him a little, but be resolute. SM is a three piece now.
After one beer, you leave.
When he cashes the check, you'll have a paper trail that he was paid, and cashing the check implies that he understands the deal.
When you get home, put an announcement on your myspace/kickstarter/etc that Silver Machine is now a three piece, and that the guys wish D-bag all the best in his solo projects. Don't make it sound like you fired him - make it sound like he's off on a new far-out space adventure or something. No reason to bruise his ego in public - that'll just make him mad. And it's unnecessary. Remove his pictures from myspace/kickstarter/etc and have new band photos taken. Voila.
Do not jam with him or do anything musical with him for at least a year or two. He needs to move on.
The three of you should then talk about setting up a band contract, or something that lays out the rules for who does own the band name, how decisions are made, what happens to the money, what happens if someone leaves voluntarily, what happens when someone gets fired, how is it all affected if a new person joins the band, etc. And then go see the entertainment lawyer again to make it legal. It sucks talking about that kind of stuff, but it's important.
If it's at all possible and you haven't gone to press yet, remove his contributions to the album. Just take 'em off, no matter how good they were. You're in a better position if he's not there. Otherwise you'll owe him more money. If you keep his parts, you will owe him money from sales in the future. Best to just cut the cords.
Change the passwords to myspace/kickstarter/band email - even if you think he doesn't know the passwords. Do this right before you all leave to meet with him (see below).
Then, schedule a band meeting in his town - and maybe have him pick a bar to meet at. (That way he's less likely to make a scene.) The three of you should drive together - in the same car, very important - and arrive promptly or even a little early. Wait for him outside. Go inside together, and order a pitcher. You buy. You now have the time it takes to drink one beer to lay it out.
Hand him a check for 1/4 of the kickstarter fund, 1/4 of the band fund at the moment, and any other money you owe him. Tell him you've all given it a lot of thought and you've decided that SM is going to continue as a three piece. Don't let it get personal. You've all had some good times, and you hope to see him around. Maybe flatter him a little, but be resolute. SM is a three piece now.
After one beer, you leave.
When he cashes the check, you'll have a paper trail that he was paid, and cashing the check implies that he understands the deal.
When you get home, put an announcement on your myspace/kickstarter/etc that Silver Machine is now a three piece, and that the guys wish D-bag all the best in his solo projects. Don't make it sound like you fired him - make it sound like he's off on a new far-out space adventure or something. No reason to bruise his ego in public - that'll just make him mad. And it's unnecessary. Remove his pictures from myspace/kickstarter/etc and have new band photos taken. Voila.
Do not jam with him or do anything musical with him for at least a year or two. He needs to move on.
The three of you should then talk about setting up a band contract, or something that lays out the rules for who does own the band name, how decisions are made, what happens to the money, what happens if someone leaves voluntarily, what happens when someone gets fired, how is it all affected if a new person joins the band, etc. And then go see the entertainment lawyer again to make it legal. It sucks talking about that kind of stuff, but it's important.
"Well, I gather that you feel this guy is a douche-bag" --> LOL
If you're not concerned about the name, I would just tell him you are all quitting, then just come up with a new name.
As far as telling him, I would suggest
1) the rest of the band is there
2) You think about what and how you're going tell him
3) Keep it short and simple
Good luck.
If you're not concerned about the name, I would just tell him you are all quitting, then just come up with a new name.
As far as telling him, I would suggest
1) the rest of the band is there
2) You think about what and how you're going tell him
3) Keep it short and simple
Good luck.
gnjpowell
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- Nov 12, 2010
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The longer you keep rolling that there snowball the bigger it gets...
Be blunt. Very blunt. Cut your losses. Life is short. Git-R-Done. MOVE ON!
Be blunt. Very blunt. Cut your losses. Life is short. Git-R-Done. MOVE ON!
Amazing.
The guy moved away and quit the band. Just what you wanted.
So any problems that exist, you and your band mates have to take responsibility.
By using his music, guitar parts, image, time, money, etc., I think you've legally screwed your group so badly and created so much drama by your actions that the band may never recover due to legal problems that you have created.
He was GONE. Out of your life. Forever. And now....it's like he never left. You continued on as if the musical partnership never ended.
You resurrected HIM.
What did you think was going to happen?
Edit: IMO, I think you and your band mates have become victim to the Internet's everything is free mentality. Your band incorporated (sampled) your own recordings to extract the guy's best sound effects. Then you impart his image into your advertising campaign. Then you get upset that you didn't get money from his mother when he's not really in the band?
All without considering what you may have to give up in return.
Something's wrong. Very wrong with situation.
Bottom line, the guy owns the rights to the musical parts you've incorporated into your songs.
The guy owns his image that you've incorporated into your advertising.
Conclusion: He's in the band, now and forever as far as what has been done up to this point. And he's an equal partner based on your actions. You need to pay him money to buy him out, if he wants to be bought out.
Good luck.
PS. Next time, I suggest using TB to help solve you're problems at the beginning of your ventures. Lots of knowledge in the herd.
IMO, take his parts out of your songs and create new parts. Don't release anything unless this is done. Take him out of your advertising ASAP. Replace all pictures with him in it. Then, with a phone call. Let him know you're moving in a new direction and wish him well. I also suggest that this be the last contact you have with him. Ever.
He may keep stalking you and interfere with your future musical endeavors so you'll have to deal with that by possibly offering him some cash and get him to sign an agreement in exchange. See what happens....
Nail on the head, right there. We've had incidences in the past where at first he seemed "on the same page" (ie, our radio gig as a trio) and then flipped out over it a few days later.
One thing I feel I should clarify is my reference to the band as "his" in the OP. I meant that more metaphorically, as in "I was the new guy, and not ready to exert control over the guy who brought me into the band". He was never a driving creative force behind the band, though his enthusiasm was certainly beneficial to the band's promotion. That is no longer the case.
Another thing I want to clarify is that I'm not looking to dick him over. I'm not looking to take away from the contributions he's already made, and if he's entitled to a share of these first two albums (plus another unreleased album that may or may not ever see the light of day), I want him to have that share. While I appreciate the suggestions that we just drop his tracks from this album, that might have been a viable option at the START of the mixing process, but that isn't really the case at this juncture. Being more of a 'concept album' it's not really a matter of "replacing a guitar part", and after the 10s/100s of hours I spent truly making "his" parts work, they're as much a testament to our engineering talent as anything else. In any case, the album we've pre-sold is the album with him on it, so I don't feel it would be fair (to him nor to our supporters) to change that now.
We've run the band to this point as a sort of 'majority rules' democracy, voting on any major decisions. The drummer has yielded his vote to anything that the other guitarist and I are in agreement on, since he and I have worked side by side about 20 hours a week on this album and some of our future products. Through email we've all established that we want him to get exactly what he deserves: no more, no less.
1) He deserves to be fired. Every band member is in agreement.
2) He deserves to be compensated for the contributions he's made. Every band member is in agreement.
It seems the consensus on this board is that we should try to cut him out of any future stake in the first 2 albums (to which he contributed), am I perceiving this correctly? Is that hands down preferable than including him in any residual income we might generate off of those albums (assuming there is any)? Why is that the case? If one of our future projects (to which he will have no investment) causes us to sell out or reprint one of these earlier projects I'm fully willing to share that revenue with him, am I wrong for that?
The way we handled the first album after all the debts were paid was by simply dividing the remaining physical copies between the four of us (the previous bass player graciously conceded his stake in the band and that album to me), as everyone had a more or less equal investment at that point since the album was paid for strictly from gig revenues. Might it be fair to simply "pay him off" with a huge stack of CDs (presuming he would go for it) proportionate to his investment in this project? What would be some of the downsides to that?
I really appreciate all of the input I've received here, and will be printing it out and going over it with a highlighter to bring to our meeting on Friday. cheers!
I need to emphasize that we are not upset about $200 we didn't receive, but the fact that he may have used our hard work and our name to defraud somebody out of their $200... his own mother, no less.
You're right about everything else though, and I'm not trying to cut him out of the band retroactively... as stated above, we want him to receive anything that he is due. This album was a vehicle for the work we've done over the last 2-3 years, a packaging of that. The "bonus DVD" includes a 1 hour video feature, and the "bonus CD" includes another hour of music recorded in that time frame. Like it or not, he was a part of that. I don't feel we misled anybody by including him in the promotion for this material, because this material is what it is- and a lot of it is too good to simply abandon and move on.
The advice I'm seeking is simply about moving-forward. Hindsight might be 20/20, but Time Travel doesn't exist- so what I'm looking for is how to best take the "next" step. Obviously not including him in our future projects is a given, but I want to establish that he is out well before we start promoting those projects, and especially before we might have to play any shows in connection with those projects.
You're not wrong in being fair. The advice to cut him out entirely is to avoid all the flakiness and possible nastiness that accompanies him. He's not a nice person, as far as I'm concerned and should not be promoted any further or associated with any further. Princples really.
Well, I gather that you feel this guy is a douche-bag
However, I would not bring that into the discussion, nor any other personal faults of his.
I would just calmly say that while he's been away the band has evolved, and you have collectively decided that his participation is no longer in line with what the band needs.
Do it now, before he's moved back. The way I see it there's no way this can go down amicably because he doesn't want that. From then on do not discuss band matters with him. Let him expose himself as best he sees fit on social media. Do not engage in arguments, just ignore him. And don't let him "jam" with you. Chances are he'll just take that as confirmation he's back in.
Well Said!! Especially about not jamming with him again...stay away otherwise just mixed signals...also remove him as a named member in all web areas...
I don't know that you're wrong, but if I were you I'd still try to buy him out. It will make your life much easier going forward, especially if someone (i.e. major label, film, TV show, etc) takes an interest in those two albums.
YES!
(By the way, the concept is "buy" him out - not "cut" him out. That's what makes it ethical and legal. Capiche?)
Because continuing ANY kind of relationship with this guy - business or personal - allows him to keep a residual toehold in your band, and therefore in your lives. It provides a platform from which he can continue to victimize you with all his toxic, douchebag voodoo. Why is that not crystal clear to you already? Left unchecked, he has the potential to destroy everything you've worked so hard to create. Is that really what you want?
You're not "wrong". You're naive...
CDs that feature his name in the credits? With his likeness or image on the insert? His playing on the tracks? Thereby allowing him to perpetuate some sort of residual connection to the band?
Oh no, I can't see any downside to that...
Frankly were I in your shoes, I would have considered his attempted sabotage of the radio gig to be the absolute last straw. I'm not a violent man, but after that stunt, someone would have had to restrain me from giving D-Bag the beatdown of his life.
It's one thing to strive for your own success. It's quite another to strive for another's failure. Grrrrrr.....
MM
+1
Another related type scenario:
Going through a divorce in his 40's, a guy agreed (with his lawyer's approval) to pay alimony of $$$ per month until his ex got remarried. That was it.
See any problem with that?
Sure enough, more than 3 decades later, he's still paying alimony and will continue until one or the other passes on. His ex is happily unmarried.
True story.
Get the picture.
Get your d-bag buddy out of your lives ASAP. Whatever it takes. While you're a good guy, he's not. Logic doesn't work with him so you'll have to treat him with kid gloves to get him to see things your way.
Good luck.
Because otherwise he'll come knockin' at your door looking for money every couple of months.
Because you'll have to keep proper accounting records for those albums and share those records with him.
Because he will probably decide he deserves a bigger cut or more money if you get to be more successful than you were with him, or that you guys are sellouts and will be vocal on social media unless he gets what he wants.
Because otherwise he retains the power to give you headaches whenever he chooses. And if he's unhappy about being booted from the band, he'll probably exercize that power.
Trust me, I have experience with a former bandmate like this!
I understand why you're inclined to give him his fair share for future sales. It's nice, kind, fair, and it's respectful of his contributions. If he causes you headaches while he's IN the band, you can guarantee that he'll cause you headaches when you kick him out. Your first priority should be jettisoning the drama, and buying him out is an easy way to do it.
LOL, that's the first time I've heard it put that way. Sounds like his personality is coming through!
I just read this thread. It's a no brainer. He slapped his girlfriend. Just send him an email with three words in it.
You are out.
You are out.
jive1
Commercial User
One of the sticky issues here is that the guy has the option of not being bought out. If he owns the songs, the parts, and the images, he could sell em and it may be in his best interest to do so. But, he also has the right to not sell them at all and keep it to himself.
Yep... we've talked over that option and it's really not what we're looking to do. We're fully willing to give him his share until the earlier projects "expire" and let that be that. If interest is sufficient that they warrant a second or third or fourth printing, or if any of those tracks get licensed then we're ok with him getting his fair cut- it only becomes worthwhile for him if it is worthwhile for us in the first place- his handling of his dismissal will play a large part in whether or not this album gets promoted and shopped for licensing or put to sleep while we move on, and we will make sure he knows that. We've got enough work ahead of us as a trio that we don't have to 'look back' at what is behind us unless it is truly worthwhile to do so.
The three of us appreciate all of the advice in this thread- we read it over together taking notes, and I can truly say that you have helped us clarify how to take the next steps. This isn't the only place we looked for advice, but this is definitely where we found the greatest amount of useful input, so on behalf of the whole band: thank you. cheers!
I understand that you believe that the way you're handling the situation is straight forward and that nothing will come of it. Unfortunately, ignorance of the law can come back to bite you at the least opportune time.
Thanks to Disney and other corporate interests, for practical purposes, no IP expires:Currently, works no longer have to be published to be protected and no longer require a copyright notice.
Works Created 1/1/1978 or after - When work is fixed in tangible medium of expression - notice is irrelevant - copyright protection lasts for the life of author and 70 years based on the the longest living author if jointly created or if work of corporate authorship, works for hire, or anonymous and pseudonymous works, the shorter of 95 years from publication, or 120 years from creation.
From:Link Removed
Tangible medium of expression means: a work is reduced to some concrete form, such as when it is written on a piece of paper, recorded on an audiotape or videotape, or stored on a computer disk or hard drive.
Even works produced semi/anonymously are not in the public domain and nothing needs the copyright symbol to be copyrighted.
Ever use the word "morass"? IMO, now is a good time to integrate it into your vocabulary. Something that overwhelms, confuses, or impedes: a frustrating, confusing, or unmanageable situation that impedes or prevents progress (from Bing Dictionary).
Worst case scenario: With your d-bag buddy being part owner, he could get his own band together, use the name "The Original ....." and start gigging with your tunes and became famous.
Let's all hope your old projects die quickly and there's no ongoing revenue. Hey, he can ask for a copy of the master's or the CD and sell them himself. He'll have to share the revenue with you, of course. If he doesn't then you'll have to go legal on him. I really don't think you'll ever see the last of him for a long, long time. He doesn't seem to be the type to give up on something easily.
Good luck.
