i hate sound guys

[agedhorse]

As far as I'm concerned, the soundguy can take my signal post-pre from my amp's DI ( I use Genz Benz ShuttleMAX 6.0 and GBE750) or mic my cab. I use my amp's tone presets and I sometimes use pedals (chorus etc.).

This is exactly why the pre-post feature is included. For those players who use these voicing features, the post postition is valuable, but I also advise that you work with the sound guy to be sure that the signal you are sending him post will work for him too, If you use LF extend and heavy bass eq to make your small cabinet sound bigger, the signal to the PA may be so bass heavy for his big sub cabinets to be overwhelming and now he has to try to get back to something useable on his end. This is where communication and compromise is essential in order to accurately translate YOUR tone to the AUDIENCE environment through cabinets that might be night and day different than what you are using on stage.

 

[ga_edwards]

This is where communication and compromise is essential in order to accurately translate YOUR tone to the AUDIENCE environment through cabinets that might be night and day different than what you are using on stage.

Just what I was saying, but in a much more eloquent and condensed form.

I think a lot of musicians don't know how to communicate effectively the sound they're after. One person's growl could be another person's mud.

It wouldn't hurt for aspiring musicians to investigate and learn about sound craft and mixing. To be able to say to your sound man 'I like a cut around 1kHz and slight lift around 250Hz' is a lot clearer than saying 'I want to sound fat' then arguing when you don't like it.

Come to think of it, I could do with doing that myself!

 

[Hawkeye]

This is exactly why the pre-post feature is included. For those players who use these voicing features, the post postition is valuable, but I also advise that you work with the sound guy to be sure that the signal you are sending him post will work for him too, If you use LF extend and heavy bass eq to make your small cabinet sound bigger, the signal to the PA may be so bass heavy for his big sub cabinets to be overwhelming and now he has to try to get back to something useable on his end.

Thanks for that, and I definitely agree. It's the bassists' responsibility to send the soundman a signal that he can use properly. Heavily-EQ'd post-pre signals are unlikely to sound good out front. I use the global extend (and the other tone presets more like pedals and they are used in particular spots of songs for a specific effect. At a gig I tend to set up the heads pretty flat compared to how I have them set it in rehearsal or at home.

This is where communication and compromise is essential in order to accurately translate YOUR tone to the AUDIENCE environment ....

Well put. Hey, aren't we on the same team as the soundguy? How does a running back know which way to run if he doesn't know where the lineman is going to block? They both have to know what the play is. As an amateur who runs sound for our band, I know something of what the person running the PA is dealing with. I'm definitely all ears when it comes to good suggestions from anyone involved who offers good advice.

As ga_edwards pointed out previously (good post by the way), some bassists are remarkably laid-back about their tone and do look at their amp as just a loud box. Others, (and the small army of Ampeg SVT users out there proves this point) look at the amplifier as an indispensable tool to getting the sound they want for the song.

Soundguys already know that guitarists are neurotic about their set-up and tone and are already knowledgeable about their prerequisites.

We bass players are probably a confusing lot because of the sheer variety of equipment we play compared to guitarists and the fact that not all of us are interested in doing something other than "straight into the board".

 

[agedhorse]

One of the best bits of advice I got from a really experienced and very good touring engineer was that no one player is 100% of a band's tone or sound.

 

[bucephylus]

The problem I am having with this whole thing is not the sound guy per se. The problem I have is the FOH system is not what I would have chosen as a stand alone bass rig to begin with. The biamp thing has mostly been discarded from most stand-alone bass amps for tonal reasons. The main speakers by themselves don't really get the tone I am after.

Then, there is a sound guy trying to do the best he can. Most likely he has a different concept of bass tone than I do. OK, I can work with that. But, the PA is configured nothing like what I would consider optimal for bass tone.

Maybe I am missing something, but it seems we spend so much time on getting good tone with the bass - amp - cab chain, and then that is basically superseded by an FOH system that is designed for other purposes. I mean, if I were a sound guy and didn't know better, I'd probably tend to emphasize the bass in the subs. Seems logical.

I suppose I need to invest in some kind of leveling EQ that I could put right at the board and adjust to get the bass sounding OK out of the FOH arrangement, then spend time on the FOH as my "amp" to get reasonable sound; but I feel like I'm just putting perfume on a pig.

 

[bucephylus]

One of the best bits of advice I got from a really experienced and very good touring engineer was that no one player is 100% of a band's tone or sound.

True that, it is the mix that matters. But, we used to create that mix using backline tone. Now, we are using FOH gear that doesn't appear to be correctly configured for all the parts, bass included.

I believe we all want the whole sound to be the best it can be. But, isn't getting decent tone out of the bass part of that process?

 

[fokof]

The ideal PA is one that has "Zero" coloration. (I won't use the word flat).
Be it three way , four way , 5 way , I don't care.
It happens that a single driver can't reproduce the whole sound spectrum , that's why bi-amplification exists , it it does a real good job.

I personaly use a bi-amplified box (active) as a monitor ( or some call it bass amp) and I think it sound wonderfull.

A good PA reproduces what it is fed by.
Give a sh!tty tone to a good PA , it will sound like Sh!t.

 

[bucephylus]

The ideal PA is one that has "Zero" coloration. (I won't use the word flat).
Be it three way , four way , 5 way , I don't care.
It happens that a single driver can't reproduce the whole sound spectrum , that's why bi-amplification exists , it it does a real good job.

I personaly use a bi-amplified box (active) as a monitor ( or some call it bass amp) and I think it sound wonderfull.

A good PA reproduces what it is fed by.
Give a sh!tty tone to a good PA , it will sound like Sh!t.

Brilliant.

Shouldn't a PA accurately reproduce the intended sound? I mean if you amplified the New York Philharmonic, the musicians would be listening for a true reproduction of the sound they are creating on the stage.

OK, the electric bass requires an amplifier/speaker to make sound. So, the amplifier/speaker is part of the instrument. and, I accept that there are a variety of interpretations as to how a bass should sound. Not meaning to dis anyone who chooses a biamp setup for their instrument; and I'm sure in all cases a lot of thought goes into the sound.

I'm just saying I personally wouldn't select a Peavey SP3 sitting on top of a Carvin bass bin as my "rig" of choice. I don't think that means I have poor sound, but if someone wants to believe that what it means, then OK. I'm just trying to figure out how to get good bass sound in the mix using FOH equipment that I have no choice about. That's my problem, and I'm not blaming anyone for it.

 

[walterw]

The problem I am having with this whole thing is not the sound guy per se. The problem I have is the FOH system is not what I would have chosen as a stand alone bass rig to begin with.


I suppose I need to invest in some kind of leveling EQ that I could put right at the board and adjust to get the bass sounding OK out of the FOH arrangement, then spend time on the FOH as my "amp" to get reasonable sound; but I feel like I'm just putting perfume on a pig.

yeah, a pig that is strapped to a cart that's before the horse, and also filled with apples and oranges

the PA speaker is not supposed to sound like your bass amp does when you're standing next to it! by that logic, each PA stack should also have a 4x12 guitar cab in it to reproduce the sound your guitar player hears standing next to his cab.

what should happen is that the entire PA, from horns to subs, combines to create the sound of the entire band, evenly and clearly, to everyone in the room. the better the PA, band, soundguy, and room, the closer you get to that goal.

also, that "leveling EQ" is already out there; it's called the channel strip EQ, and "adjusting to get the bass sounding ok out of the FOH arrangement" is a fair description of a soundman's job.

the idea of you going back there to try and get a FOH stack that's far away from you to sound like your rig when standing next to it, with no regard to everything else that has to also sound good through it at the same time, is just loony.

I'm just saying I personally wouldn't select a Peavey SP3 sitting on top of a Carvin bass bin as my "rig" of choice.

that would be pretty hateful to stand next to on stage, wouldn't it?

by the same token, a bunch of svt cabinets would be pretty worthless as PA subs. these are completely different kinds of speakers for completely different applications. a properly deployed PA rig combines to give a reasonably even output full bandwidth, both above and below what your bass rig likely puts out, and project it over some distance.

if your tone is together (via mic, DI, whatever), it should take little EQ to make it sound good (and like you) through that good system.

 

[bucephylus]

yeah, a pig that is strapped to a cart that's before the horse, and also filled with apples and oranges

OK, so I'm a really stupid person.

Now that that's out of the way, are you saying the bass shouldn't sound like it does on stage, but somehow, in the mix everything will come together? Or is the FOH supposed to sound different?

Yes, I get that there is a mix. I hear the whole mix when I play. But, it sounds different on the stage than out front. Are you saying that is supposed to be the case?

Not trying to be stupid or stubborn, but I'm starting to feel like there is some religion in this discussion, and we simply aren't supposed to question the FOH equipment. Sorry if I have offended.

 

[bucephylus]

also, that "leveling EQ" is already out there; it's called the channel strip EQ, and "adjusting to get the bass sounding ok out of the FOH arrangement" is a fair description of a soundman's job.

Are you talking about the three knobs that say Bass, Mid, and Treble? Why should that be acceptable when we don't settle for that level of sound control on the amp? I mean, what is the point of adjusting the stage bass sound with multiband parametric EQ to be just right, and then say Bass, Mid, Treble is OK for the paying customers. Not trying to be argumentative, I'm just trying to come up to speed on the FOH concepts.

Honestly, I am not intending to be argumentative. I admit to being new at looking at the FOH "rig," and am honestly trying to ask what I consider to be reasonable questions. I know the sound guy has a lot to deal with, and 26 more knobs on one of the channels doesn't help make things easier. But, where the electric bass pretty much is going direct to the board, the board becomes the primary tone control. Isn't it OK to have an interest in making that sound be as close to ideal as possible?

 

[walterw]

oh no, i get what you're saying. as a guitar player, i think i might even get it more, as nothing sounds like a cranked tube guitar amp hitting you directly, not a recording, not a PA mix, nothing.

i think the trick is to think of what the crowd gets as a sort of "mixed-down" or "produced" version of the band, where an individual instrument may not be as "big" as it is when you are creating that sound, but it all combines to sound "good" to the crowd.

i guess this is sort of opposite the old-school method of blasting walls of marshall stacks and svt cabs from stage, where the audience is getting hit with your stage sound directly, but jeez, aren't we all deaf enough already?

 

[walterw]

Are you talking about the three knobs that say Bass, Mid, and Treble? Why should that be acceptable when we don't settle for that level of sound control on the amp?

well, if the board is so primitive that you only have those three knobs, chances are the club is so small the crowd is hearing your stage sound anyway

 

[bucephylus]

well, if the board is so primitive that you only have those three knobs, chances are the club is so small the crowd is hearing your stage sound anyway

I wish. Actually, I've had to go to a single 15 at low volume on stage to avoid bleed into the mics. That's OK from the standpoint of my load in/out.

Although I like SVT's, I never played really loud. Most of the bands I've worked with were Blues/Funk bands. For years my "rig" was two Tech 2x12's that were pretty small. I never ran them really loud, but used them for their inherent tone with a Walter Woods head. It was just a nice funky small setup. So, I'm not missing anything about the volume. I'm good with not blowing out my ears. I am just trying to reconcile my sound through the FOH I'm working with and trying to make it clearer.

To the earlier post about using 10's or something else in the mains; would an array of 12's not work? We get good bass tone out of 4x10's in our amps. Why wouldn't 10's or 12's in arrays work for mains? I just see Peavey and JBL sort of doing the same thing year after year and not bringing anything new to the party. I understand the horns are needed for voice, but the rest of the drivers would seem to be up for grabs for improvement, no?

 

[JimmyM]

Honestly, I am not intending to be argumentative. I admit to being new at looking at the FOH "rig," and am honestly trying to ask what I consider to be reasonable questions. I know the sound guy has a lot to deal with, and 26 more knobs on one of the channels doesn't help make things easier. But, where the electric bass pretty much is going direct to the board, the board becomes the primary tone control. Isn't it OK to have an interest in making that sound be as close to ideal as possible?

well generally those knobs give you a good amount of control. and the bigger boards have more knobs. so it's not as bad as you think it is.

i have a feeling, though, that i'm going to be a lot less fussy about getting what i want in a couple months.

 

[walterw]

To the earlier post about using 10's or something else in the mains; would an array of 12's not work? We get good bass tone out of 4x10's in our amps. Why wouldn't 10's or 12's in arrays work for mains? I just see Peavey and JBL sort of doing the same thing year after year and not bringing anything new to the party. I understand the horns are needed for voice, but the rest of the drivers would seem to be up for grabs for improvement, no?

again, it's a different design goal. with bass, it's about tone, as in a created sound, a musical instrument essentially. with PA, it's all about things like efficiency, directivity, bandwidth, coverage, fidelity, etc. a re-created sound, altered as little as possible and projected as widely and evenly as possible.

for example, a bunch of 10s or 12s right next to each other will create phase cancellations ("comb filtering") at anything above sub frequencies. that's fine for a musical instrument amp, as it's part of the character or tone of the rig. in sound re-production, though, it just sounds bad, causing hot zones and dead zones throughout the room.

 

[walterw]

well generally those knobs give you a good amount of control. and the bigger boards have more knobs. so it's not as bad as you think it is.

i have a feeling, though, that i'm going to be a lot less fussy about getting what i want in a couple months.

you're about to get canned?

 

[JimmyM]

you're about to get canned?

i wish! not really!!! no, i just heard of a new product that's going to solve all my problems. they wanna mic my amp, great. if not, they're going to get the same sound anyway. i can kind of do it now, but it's going to get a lot easier.

 

[bucephylus]

Apologies for getting all excited about this. I'll just go away and try to learn more about the freakin PA gear.

I do know that a Southern Rock act I was working with about 10 months ago was running the powered QSC gear for FOH; and I though the bass sound coming out of that was just great. Maybe I just don't like the PA I'm playing through right now. Or maybe I need to work more with the sound guy and the equipment, who knows.

Thanks for the input, guys.

 

[BigMac5]

i wish! not really!!! no, i just heard of a new product that's going to solve all my problems. they wanna mic my amp, great. if not, they're going to get the same sound anyway. i can kind of do it now, but it's going to get a lot easier.

What new product?