i hate sound guys

[greenboy]

Not sure who is a "chump" here.

Anyone who suggests something that has big potential to damage someone else's gear is a chump. That's who's the chump.

 

[bucephylus]

Anyone who suggests something that has big potential to damage someone else's gear is a chump. That's who's the chump.

Missed that. Didn't see where anyone suggested damaging someone's gear. Agreed, that would not be a good idea.

 

[MIJ-VI]

Actually, the fun would end about 2 bars into the first song.

(Real) sound guys are mixing for the audience, fitting the bass into the mix. That's where it will end up regardless of what happens on stage, and games like that tend to sabatoge the entire band. So much for the bass player being a team player in a scenario like this eh?

THe bands I hate mixing the most are the bands where everybody in the band id a sound expert and they all want more of themselves in the mix. Recipee for failure from the start.

I guess some musicians don't trust their band-mates not to be greedy--which is too bad since trust is built upon a foundation of respect...

And this seemingly frequent antagonism between electric bass players and live sound engineers confuses me.

It's not like there's a shortage of fine sounding, compact, light & quick to set up combos/near-field bass monitors which could be positioned in front of a bassist and aimed at his (I can't image women participating in this pi$$ing match) ears instead of the FOH mixing console.

As for overall stage volume? In the interest of preserving a band's ability to manipulate dynamics/achieve the aural drama which distinguishes a genuinely musical performance, the maximum combined - and well blended - SPL of the amplified instruments should not exceed the group's drummer's ability to play with finesse and endurance, IMO.

Perhaps a resurgence of the 'unplugged' concert fad is needed to reacquaint prima donnas with what's important.

 

[walker rosewood]

there's an easy solution to all the musician/soundguy issues.

aviom (or similar system) + nice pair of in ears = everybody's happy

although it does put the monitor engineer out of a job.

 

[jmattbassplaya]

I guess some musicians don't trust their band-mates not to be greedy--which is too bad since trust is built upon a foundation of respect...

Unfortunately everyone wants to be 'the star' of the show. In the last group I was in neither of my guitarists wanted to rearrange their EQ when I told them that our sound was muddy - which I knew because I checked it out from the audience viewpoint with my wireless set - Anyways they thought I was trying to steal the spotlight when all I was trying to do was enhance our sound as best as I could. Oh well, that whole quagmire of a band is long gone now.

 

[bucephylus]

Just to follow up my earlier post, I arrived at rehearsal last night to find the sound guy and drummer hooking up the entire PA in the rehearsal room just to shake it down for Thursday night. We've actually got Thur-Fri-Sat in the same club.

Guitars were noodling.

Drummer and sound guy get to the kick drum mic, and I say, "may I make a few comments about the kick drum?" Guitarists stop playing. Drummer says, "Sure."

I then mention that many if not most rock bands I have played with mic the kick as the loudest part of the drum mix, but that it is hitting on 1 and 3. I state further that R&R is found on the 2 and 4, which is defined by the rim shots.

Total silence for about 5 seconds, then one of the guitarists says quite literally, "I had no idea." Drummer says, "Yeah, he's right." Sound guy says, "Yeah, kick loudest is the way I have been told to mix most rock bands, but they all end up sounding like a big drone;" (can you say Gregorian chants?).

Anyhow, big revelation for most of the band except the drummer, and these are actually some experienced cats. Sound guy now at least gets that part of the mix. Good start with him. We then have the best sounding rehearsal yet; and we've been doing gigs for 6 months now as a unit. I think all it took was to re-focus everyone onto what matters.

Curiously, once I succeeded in getting everyone to pay attention to the 2 and 4, the sound guy then tells the guitarists to turn down after the second tune. We are definitely making progress.

Moral of the story: discuss the mix with the sound guy. They can learn just like everyone else. And rehearsal is the time to do it.

 

[MonkeyBass]

Just to follow up my earlier post, I arrived at rehearsal last night to find the sound guy and drummer hooking up the entire PA in the rehearsal room just to shake it down for Thursday night. We've actually got Thur-Fri-Sat in the same club.

Guitars were noodling.

Drummer and sound guy get to the kick drum mic, and I say, "may I make a few comments about the kick drum?" Guitarists stop playing. Drummer says, "Sure."

I then mention that many if not most rock bands I have played with mic the kick as the loudest part of the drum mix, but that it is hitting on 1 and 3. I state further that R&R is found on the 2 and 4, which is defined by the rim shots.

Total silence for about 5 seconds, then one of the guitarists says quite literally, "I had no idea." Drummer says, "Yeah, he's right." Sound guy says, "Yeah, kick loudest is the way I have been told to mix most rock bands, but they all end up sounding like a big drone;" (can you say Gregorian chants?).

Anyhow, big revelation for most of the band except the drummer, and these are actually some experienced cats. Sound guy now at least gets that part of the mix. Good start with him. We then have the best sounding rehearsal yet; and we've been doing gigs for 6 months now as a unit. I think all it took was to re-focus everyone onto what matters.

Curiously, once I succeeded in getting everyone to pay attention to the 2 and 4, the sound guy then tells the guitarists to turn down after the second tune. We are definitely making progress.

Moral of the story: discuss the mix with the sound guy. They can learn just like everyone else. And rehearsal is the time to do it.

Can you come to one of my rehearsals sometime? My drummer needs some convincing.

 

[hbarcat]

Only chumps tend to think "tricks" like that are gonna wash.

Just to clarify: I was joking about blasting the bass volume in the middle of a gig to screw with the sound guy. I thought it was obvious, but considering several posters are taking it seriously I guess I should have explicitly stated that I wasn't being serious at all.

As I've said previously, I usually run the sound for my band and I also occasionally run sound for other bands so I understand where they're coming from and what they have to deal with. Because I own my own sound gear I have respect for the equipment and wouldn't even consider doing something that has the potential to damage someone's stuff.

Now back to your regularly scheduled program.

 

[addylewis]

Can't remember if I put it in this thread or not - but give them YOUR sound, then they can work with that...if need be YOU re-eq it if they can't. My signal chain once I've bought some stuff and cobbled it together is just gonna be:

Bass - Tuner/mute switch - Eq - Parametric eq (or 2 "just in case") - Preamp

The sound I get from THAT is whats going to my amp on flat and the P.A. (think of it this way...to the guys who use effects - do you go STRAIGHT to the D.I. with no effects? If so I can perfectly understand how people can HATE soundguys, I've done it a couple of times and seriously thought to myself "why the hell am I bothering to use these FX if no-one can hear them out front?")

 

[bucephylus]

Our new sound guy is great and doing a fantastic job coming up the learning curve.

The thing I am not so keen on is the tone of the bass coming out of the subs/mains. Looks like I am going to have to do some work learning how to use the PA as my "rig."

 

[agedhorse]

Can't remember if I put it in this thread or not - but give them YOUR sound, then they can work with that...if need be YOU re-eq it if they can't. My signal chain once I've bought some stuff and cobbled it together is just gonna be:

Bass - Tuner/mute switch - Eq - Parametric eq (or 2 "just in case") - Preamp

The sound I get from THAT is whats going to my amp on flat and the P.A. (think of it this way...to the guys who use effects - do you go STRAIGHT to the D.I. with no effects? If so I can perfectly understand how people can HATE soundguys, I've done it a couple of times and seriously thought to myself "why the hell am I bothering to use these FX if no-one can hear them out front?")

If you are using effects into the amp, I would prefer to take your signal post effects but before your amp.

Really, the main reason is that for me to get YOUR sound through MY PA, the eq that I will need to use is going to be very different and if I start with your eq, there's a lot to undo (which really is not all that practical) before I do what I need to do. Your bass amp sounds very different from my PA and I am covering a much larger area than you need to cover. I know of very few bass amps that go down into the low 30's or high 20's at -3dB. 8 x 18's in pro subs have another 1/2 octave below most bass amps and in many cases it's a full octave. If you are boosting the bottom end and cutting low mids to try to get a deeper, thicker bottom, I will be swimming in that crap. Your sound in my PA is not from your eq, it's from me translating what you are trying to accomplish on stage into the bigger picture. If I get send something that's not very useable, YOUR sound will suffer in the PA regardless of what it sounds like coming out of your amp.

 

[TimmyP]

If you are using effects into the amp, I would prefer to take your signal post effects but before your amp.

Really, the main reason is that for me to get YOUR sound through MY PA, the eq that I will need to use is going to be very different and if I start with your eq, there's a lot to undo (which really is not all that practical) before I do what I need to do. Your bass amp sounds very different from my PA and I am covering a much larger area than you need to cover. I know of very few bass amps that go down into the low 30's or high 20's at -3dB. 8 x 18's in pro subs have another 1/2 octave below most bass amps and in many cases it's a full octave. If you are boosting the bottom end and cutting low mids to try to get a deeper, thicker bottom, I will be swimming in that crap. Your sound in my PA is not from your eq, it's from me translating what you are trying to accomplish on stage into the bigger picture. If I get send something that's not very useable, YOUR sound will suffer in the PA regardless of what it sounds like coming out of your amp.

Agedhorse beat me to it. Even if the bass rig was using Acme cabinets, I'd still expect to need quite different EQ to the amp Vs. to the PA.

If you were to use the parametric to get your tone in the PA, and could still get your bass rig to sound the way you want (and that sound does not cause problems in the room), then your signal chain might be workable. Although if the console has good channel strip EQ, the parametric might turn out to be redundant (unless you are using very narrow band to sort out hot spots in the instrument).

 

[addylewis]

I was thinking of having it there specifically for the hot spots (not necessarily at every gig...like I said, just in case they're needed - over here you've gotta be prepared for the desks to NOT have any sweepable eq) - I've got nothing against you changing the sound, just ask me to help find something better with the pedals before you change anything thats all I ask...I'd rather have an accurate projection of a workable version of MY sound coming out front rather than my amp, my amp is all pre-eq d.i. anyway...

My amp (Ashdown MAG) DOES colour the sound, in the way I like...to get that with colouring to the P.A. would be brill (all I'm after really)

anyone got any eq tips to get a "flat ashdown" sound to the P.A. from a general D.I. signal?

 

[modulusman]

If you are using effects into the amp, I would prefer to take your signal post effects but before your amp.

Really, the main reason is that for me to get YOUR sound through MY PA, the eq that I will need to use is going to be very different and if I start with your eq, there's a lot to undo (which really is not all that practical) before I do what I need to do. Your bass amp sounds very different from my PA and I am covering a much larger area than you need to cover. I know of very few bass amps that go down into the low 30's or high 20's at -3dB. 8 x 18's in pro subs have another 1/2 octave below most bass amps and in many cases it's a full octave. If you are boosting the bottom end and cutting low mids to try to get a deeper, thicker bottom, I will be swimming in that crap. Your sound in my PA is not from your eq, it's from me translating what you are trying to accomplish on stage into the bigger picture. If I get send something that's not very useable, YOUR sound will suffer in the PA regardless of what it sounds like coming out of your amp.

Someone please Send this post to Jimmy M.

 

[BigMac5]

Someone please Send this post to Jimmy M.

you can't do it yourself?

 

[JazzyLambert]

NYE gig supporting big act. Over 10,000 people attending this beach concert. At the sound check, everything was primo, but the actual set- indescribably dodgy sound, no bass then distorted woofing bass, distorted acoustic guitars with feedback, vocals too soft, nothing at all but guitar in the monitors.

How did this guy manage to make us sound so awful when all was perfect earlier in the day?

______________________________

Can't Groove @14

 

[ga_edwards]

NYE gig supporting big act. Over 10,000 people attending this beach concert. At the sound check, everything was primo, but the actual set- indescribably dodgy sound, no bass then distorted woofing bass, distorted acoustic guitars with feedback, vocals too soft, nothing at all but guitar in the monitors.

How did this guy manage to make us sound so awful when all was perfect earlier in the day?

Pressed the wrong preset recall button on the mixing console?

 

[fokof]

How did this guy manage to make us sound so awful when all was perfect earlier in the day?

Because he had 4 other bands to soundcheck AFTER yours , he had an analogic board and no spread sheets ?

 

[agedhorse]

I've seen just as many horribly managed sound checks with digital consoles as analog consoles, plus when a mispatch happens on a digital console and the scene recalled (with bravado confidence), sometimes it gets "really loud" (translated as runaway feedback) before the sound guy gets the scene muted. Then progress slows to a crawl while he changes his underwear. Hopefully no damage is done.

It's possible that the crew was celebrating more than they should have been that night, or that they got overwhelmed by things that you did not see.

 

[JimmyM]

Someone please Send this post to Jimmy M.

i'm sorry...i didn't realize that i had been goosing low end and cutting low mids. funny, but all this time i thought i had been doing the exact opposite.

don't use me to try and make your points. you will be severely disappointed if you do. for a guy who's as picky about what he wants as i am, my tone is extremely easy to work into a pa, and nobody on here or on my gigs should ever assume otherwise.