Enjoy the benefits of a premium membership!
Upgrade Account
-
TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
Join free Log in
Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.
i hate sound guys
- Thread starter Fretless925
- Start date
- Status
Actually, going slightly off on a tangent from this, I think it would be a good idea for a place that offered band/stagecraft lessons.
I mean, lot's of musicians have guitar, bass, drum, keyboard, vocal lessons etc. Which is all well and good. But there doesn't seem to be anywhere that teaches you how to play in a band, how to tweak your sound to sit in a mix, how to sound right on stage, how to set a basic FOH mix. Hey, even just how to move and look good. Invaluable stuff.
I don't know, but something like you turn up with all your gear, set it up the way you normally would, play a couple of tunes for the teacher, then the teacher steps in to fix what they are doing wrong, and explain why. Not sure, haven't really though it through.
I'm sure there's umpteen young (and old) bands that could benefit from such advice.
- Feb 12, 2006
- 60,973
- 5
- 220,720
- Disclosures
- Development Engineer-Mesa Boogie, Development Engineer-Genzler (pedals), Product Support-Genz Benz
Actually, I think it's pretty much right on topic, as this is almost always the basic reason for the conflicts with sound guys, band members, venues, etc.
How difficult is the concept "playing as a band" WITH your mates, not as individuals, playing AT each other? A band is a cohesive group playing as a group, not a gathering of individuals that just happen to be playing the same song. There are some important things that seem to be missed by those who don't take the step (of maturity?) into playing as a band, including arrangments, mixing/blending volumes and styles, dynamics, giving each other space, considering volume in the context of the venue and audience, learning how individual compromise can make for a superior product, etc. This is what makes the foundation for a long, successful career IMO. This is somewhat independant of the music too, of course the better the music (for the target audience of course), the more likely the success.
Then comes the marketing, and getting along withthose who are promoting you.
there is- it's called disney.
and look what they've done....
evil, i tell you, evil!
i agree though, what you speak of is becoming a lost art.
perhaps it is the only thing left standing between true professionals
and the masses these days...
i've dealt with some horrible soundguys and some amazing soundguys. the one thing i've found that always helps is to introduce yourself to the soundguy as soon as you get there. let him know that it's his stage, but also let him know that you know what your sound requires: "hey <soundguy's actual name>, thanks so much for running our sound for us. i'm <your name> and i'm the bassist. do you plan on running me in with just the DI? if so, can i run a quarter inch from the DI into my amp? thanks <soundguy's name>."
that's generally all that's necessary.
that's generally all that's necessary.
Great post. I would emphasize however that the "maturity" you speak of is "musical maturity", not just age. I've played with plenty of musicians in their 40's and 50's who have supposedly been playing in bands for decades who still haven't learned this.
Actually, going slightly off on a tangent from this, I think it would be a good idea for a place that offered band/stagecraft lessons.
I mean, lot's of musicians have guitar, bass, drum, keyboard, vocal lessons etc. Which is all well and good. But there doesn't seem to be anywhere that teaches you how to play in a band, how to tweak your sound to sit in a mix, how to sound right on stage, how to set a basic FOH mix. Hey, even just how to move and look good. Invaluable stuff.
I don't know, but something like you turn up with all your gear, set it up the way you normally would, play a couple of tunes for the teacher, then the teacher steps in to fix what they are doing wrong, and explain why. Not sure, haven't really though it through.
I'm sure there's umpteen young (and old) bands that could benefit from such advice.
There is & it's not cheap (what is these days?). I'm not associated in any way other than on a mailing list: http://onstagesuccess.com/
Probably others, too.
- Feb 12, 2006
- 60,973
- 5
- 220,720
- Disclosures
- Development Engineer-Mesa Boogie, Development Engineer-Genzler (pedals), Product Support-Genz Benz
Great post. I would emphasize however that the "maturity" you speak of is "musical maturity", not just age. I've played with plenty of musicians in their 40's and 50's who have supposedly been playing in bands for decades who still haven't learned this.
Absolutely. Thanks for the clarification.
I realise you are only kidding, which you clarified in the latter half of your post. But I must state that the sort of thing I had in mind is more akin to a regular guitar/instrument lesson. Learn the fundamentals, and learn the bits you want to learn to be able to do what you want to do, and not be moulded into what the teacher wants you to be. Technical things like controlling volume and getting good usable tone, miking amps, mixing instruments, controlling feedback etc. A and performance things like introducing dynamics and colour into performances, playing appropriately for the audience and not yourselves (quite a big all encompassing lesson to be learned there!), communicating with band members, and just simply smiling and moving about etc.
I mean, I saw a band a couple of weeks ago. Very proficient technically, but overplaying everything. Mustang Sally is completely the wrong tune to throw in an Eddie Van Halen shred/tapping solo... just because you can. They also had and air of 'sumgness' about them. As if to say, look at us playing all these flashy parts whilst you're sitting there worshipping us sat in your filth. Belief in your own abilities is fine, and a little arrogance if you've earnt it I can deal with. But in a bar cover band, it's just a turn off. A couple of sessions with a third party constructively telling them what they really sound and look like would work wonders.
The last thing I would want to promote is more manufactured pop.
I don't know if it has made the news outside of the UK, but us British have made a high profile stand this week against Mr Cowell's brand of manufactured, glorified karaoke.
i really wasn't kidding about disney at all.
they train professionals from a young age and promote them
incredibly well. it just has no individuality or soul....
but it sells like mad. no one else is doing long term development deals like this in the entire industry.
sad.
they train professionals from a young age and promote them
incredibly well. it just has no individuality or soul....
but it sells like mad. no one else is doing long term development deals like this in the entire industry.
sad.
+1. That is why they are called "guitards"! Also, what are you talking about Simon Cowell? I haven't heard any news across the water.
Hawkeye
Canuck Amateur
Actually, going slightly off on a tangent from this, I think it would be a good idea for a place that offered band/stagecraft lessons.
I mean, lot's of musicians have guitar, bass, drum, keyboard, vocal lessons etc. Which is all well and good. But there doesn't seem to be anywhere that teaches you how to play in a band, how to tweak your sound to sit in a mix, how to sound right on stage, how to set a basic FOH mix. Hey, even just how to move and look good. Invaluable stuff.
I don't know, but something like you turn up with all your gear, set it up the way you normally would, play a couple of tunes for the teacher, then the teacher steps in to fix what they are doing wrong, and explain why. Not sure, haven't really though it through.
I'm sure there's umpteen young (and old) bands that could benefit from such advice.
Your post is not off-topic at all and focuses on what's important for a musical act. Not only do they need to get along with the team that is helping to present the music (like sound guys), they also need to get tight with the crowd. The ability to connect with an audience, pace your performance, and position yourself for success is what separates the bands you hear about from the ones you never hear about.
In a previous life I had connected with Tom Jackson. He is a performance coach for some of the biggest names in the business. He has also run workshops doing exactly the things you posted about at venues like Canadian Music week etc. He is a great guy with a wealth of knowledge about performing and the music industry.
http://www.tomjacksonproductions.com/
Anybody who is serious about "making it" would do themselves a favor by checking him out. He has a whole DVD series on performance-craft.
Hawkeye
Canuck Amateur
Great Post! There are a lot of things in here that many young (and some older) band members would do well to consider. Working in a team (same as being in a band) requires some humility, some give and take, knowing when to put your idea forward, and knowing when to consider and nurture the ideas of your bandmates, and knowing that you're primarily there to serve the greater good (the song and the audience).
I had not checked up on this thread in a while. This post made me laugh. As said, it's a good way to get your @$$ kicked.
Does this mean if I think your tone sucks @$$ and you are ruining my mix I can come smash your bass on the floor?
Lose the attitude and everyone will be better off.
Hey stop crying and run your own sound if you can? Or hire someone who knows what they are doing. Either way you need PA support and as I have said in the past “you as a bass player are just a small part of the big puzzle that all amounts to a smile on your fans faces”. Yes your sound is important and getting what you want is important if you are in some big band rocking the world, but if that was the case you would be owned by a well oiled machine who would be telling you what sound is in their best interest for your band to succeed. And Surprise when you think you are irreplaceable, Poof you’re out!
RTS
RTS
Sorry I didn´t have the time to read all the 10 pages of this post.
But I can share my thoughts and opinion about this issue in both ways: as a soudguy and as a bass player.
As a soundguy. I´m more of a studio guy so I don´t do much live shows because it tires me a lot and if I do any show than it has to be all mounted up or at least 80% of it. So back to our problem, every time I have to run a live show I like to treat all the musician like it was in a studio and there for the sound I like to have at FOH is studio like. In order to make it sound studio like, the first thing you have to have is a good monitor mix and sound. At smaller venues most of the time the FOH does the monitors mixes as well so I try first to have a good monitoring mix so the musicians can play and if posible play pleased cuz this way you´ll going to have a better sound to work with.
The problem I had as a soundman were whe you meet non experienced musicians (and here where you clasify I think) or are simply dumb or when the stage gets small in comparison of their ego.
Other problems I had as a soundman were when I was limited by the equipment but this is rare because even with limited equipmant if you know what you´re doing and the musicinas on the stage are good the result can be good to great and even awsome.
The problems a I had with sound guys and I was the bass player is that I knew before the rig I wouldn´t hear myself (it was a small theatre) and there for in place of bringing my normal bass I brought my ABG (I have no amp yet) so I could here myself at least.
Sorry to make it sooo looooong
But I can share my thoughts and opinion about this issue in both ways: as a soudguy and as a bass player.
As a soundguy. I´m more of a studio guy so I don´t do much live shows because it tires me a lot and if I do any show than it has to be all mounted up or at least 80% of it. So back to our problem, every time I have to run a live show I like to treat all the musician like it was in a studio and there for the sound I like to have at FOH is studio like. In order to make it sound studio like, the first thing you have to have is a good monitor mix and sound. At smaller venues most of the time the FOH does the monitors mixes as well so I try first to have a good monitoring mix so the musicians can play and if posible play pleased cuz this way you´ll going to have a better sound to work with.
The problem I had as a soundman were whe you meet non experienced musicians (and here where you clasify I think) or are simply dumb or when the stage gets small in comparison of their ego.
Other problems I had as a soundman were when I was limited by the equipment but this is rare because even with limited equipmant if you know what you´re doing and the musicinas on the stage are good the result can be good to great and even awsome.
The problems a I had with sound guys and I was the bass player is that I knew before the rig I wouldn´t hear myself (it was a small theatre) and there for in place of bringing my normal bass I brought my ABG (I have no amp yet) so I could here myself at least.
Sorry to make it sooo looooong
My old bands sound guy was brilliant; he new the songs very well, EQ'd everyone for every song, and the tone was brilliant, i just had to plug in and play and not worry about anything.
In all honesty, I think DI'ing into the PA wasn't the end of the world for you're gig, the issue was you needed more of you in the monitor, you should just tell the sound engineer between songs that you can't hear yourself.
In all honesty, I think DI'ing into the PA wasn't the end of the world for you're gig, the issue was you needed more of you in the monitor, you should just tell the sound engineer between songs that you can't hear yourself.
This is the key right here. To have really great sound, you need a sound guy who knows the songs, and has a musical ear. Most sound guys are sound guys because they love the technical aspect of it. They tend to have the engineer personality more than the musician personality. If you can find that rare individual with both... nirvana!
- Status
