Ibanez Promethean

[Eublet]

Of course they do. That's their market. Marshall has a whole line of world renowned guitar amps. I wouldn't dare buy their bass amps just based on their reputation as a guitar amp manufacturer.

I think this is quite different. TC's knowledge is in signal processing, which is the heart of what the rh450 does. Other than that, it's just a power amp amplifying the signal, which they also have a good bit of experience with.

But presets, a tuner, a pretty box, and knobs with a fantastic feel aren't going to convince me that it's double as good as the Promethean, or worthy of a high price tag.

That's the only drawback of the rh450. If you don't want all those features, then certainly the price isn't worth it. They do have the Classic 450 which removes the presets, tuner and semi-parametric mids, as well as the LED controls. It still includes Spectracomp and Tubetone, and is $200 cheaper. Pretty good bang for the buck.

I care about the sound quality over an amps features. In DKB's youtube video, I think the Promethean and the TC sounded very comparable to one another. Again, just my opinion.

I agree with you completely. Tone is the most important. Those sound clips do make the Promethean look good. Honestly though, I'd have to take it on some gigs to know how it works. I've reviewed the rh450 in other threads here, and I can tell you that it's the ONLY microhead I've ever touched that faithfully reproduces both the tone AND "feel" of an all-tube head. Many heads dial in some tube-like grit and warmth, but they don't really feel like the real thing when you drive it. The rh450 is just amazing to me as you can get all that vintage goodness if you want just by dialing in a bit of spectracomp and tubetone. The transients soften and it barks at you like an old Ampeg. But you can turn those things off and have it punch you in the chest as well. That's what makes all the bells and whistles of the rh450 become more than features. They become tone/character shapers. The fact that you can store them for quick recall is just a huge added benefit.

But as with anything, it's not for everyone, and the price to get all that is certainly going to make it exclusive for many.

I tell you what..........assuming the general consensus finds the MARK BASS F1 to be worth $800, then I think we can all agree that the TC is worth an extra $200 due to it's additional features. Fair? Then by that rationale, the Promethean is a SMOKIN deal. I'll leave it at that.

I'll accept that, although I'm personally not a fan of the F1 and wouldn't spend $800 bucks for it. The F500 is another story because I like it's semi-parametric mid control.

I certainly accept that the Promethean is a very valid option for a bunch of people, Ibanez players or otherwise. I hope they'll be successful because I like nothing better than competition. But based on the small amount of time I had with one, I am very skeptical that it offers the power and punch of a Shuttle, LMII, much less the flexibility of the rh450.

But the way I am, I will very likely pick one up to try out if enough good reports start coming in.

 

[DonovanBankhead]

I've reviewed the rh450 in other threads here, and I can tell you that it's the ONLY microhead I've ever touched that faithfully reproduces both the tone AND "feel" of an all-tube head. Many heads dial in some tube-like grit and warmth, but they don't really feel like the real thing when you drive it.

This is very true. The real beauty and power of the RH450 is hard to quantify until you actually have one sitting behind you at a gig. Once you do that, it's worth becomes more apparent. It's almost like there is substance to the tone that makes it project and carry more than other micro amps...

Having an rh450 myself, it's easy to see on that video that WAY too much compression was used in the recording (Sorry! )

Actually, I didn't have that much compression turned on. IIRC, I think it was set at 11 O'clock or so. But, to each their own. For every day playing, having a fair amount of compression dialed in helps keeping everything smooth, thus keeping the bandmates and bar owners happy.

BTW, it's great reading all of the interesting discussion regarding the amp heads. Let me settle all debates by saying that all three amps are excellent quality amps, and that if you like what the amp does in terms of tone and feature set, then you should buy it. Because frankly, even the most expensive head in this comparison isn't THAT expensive, considering how important a good amp is in your signal chain...

 

[Eublet]

Actually, I didn't have that much compression turned on. IIRC, I think it was set at 11 O'clock or so. But, to each their own. For every day playing, having a fair amount of compression dialed in helps keeping everything smooth, thus keeping the bandmates and bar owners happy.

I didn't mean to sound critical. Let me explain.

I can't tell where you had the Spectracomp set since you have to be in shift-mode to see that, but you can see that you are getting a lot of gain reduction on most every note you play. I've used the rh450 enough to know what that kind of gain reduction sounds and feels like, and it helped me hear it in your clip. That's a perfectly valid setting if one likes it. I was just offering that it does skew the tone of the amp a bit compared to the other two heads that aren't applying any compression at all. And at various points in the slap and finger style section, you can hear a bit of that typical "squeeze" effect from the compression setting, followed by a bit of that pumping feel that comes as it releases. That can be a cool thing, but I just wanted to comment that it can easily be removed.

 

[DonovanBankhead]

I didn't mean to sound critical. Let me explain.

I can't tell where you had the Spectracomp set since you have to be in shift-mode to see that, but you can see that you are getting a lot of gain reduction on most every note you play. I've used the rh450 enough to know what that kind of gain reduction sounds and feels like, and it helped me hear it in your clip. That's a perfectly valid setting if one likes it. I was just offering that it does skew the tone of the amp a bit compared to the other two heads that aren't applying any compression at all. And at various points in the slap and finger style section, you can hear a bit of that typical "squeeze" effect from the compression setting, followed by a bit of that pumping feel that comes as it releases. That can be a cool thing, but I just wanted to comment that it can easily be removed.

No problem at all, and I agree with your comments. I just don't people to get the wrong idea that there was lots of compression. Trust me - there was plenty left to squash!

 

[Eublet]

No problem at all, and I agree with your comments. I just don't people to get the wrong idea that there was lots of compression. Trust me - there was plenty left to squash!

Not that it's important, but we'll have to agree to disagree on this. It doesn't matter where the compression dial was set, but rather the amount of reduction that occurs based on the input signal. You had a lot of LED's backing off on most every note you played, rather than just a couple here and there on the spikes. A high output bass will not require a higher dial setting to get a lot of compression going. But if you only had it set around 11 o'clock, there was certainly a lot of room for even more squish!

Anyway, sorry for the derail. I appreciate the video, and it does show off all 3 heads quite nicely! Keep up the good work!

 

[Smallequestrian]

...I am very skeptical that it offers the power and punch of a Shuttle, LMII, much less the flexibility of the rh450.

If you agree that the F1 has more or less the same amount of punch of the Little Mark, then I would guess the Promethean does too. Its quite likely that they are using the same ICE power module from Bang & Olufsen. I'll crack mine open when it comes in.

 

[Eublet]

If you agree that the F1 has more or less the same amount of punch of the Little Mark, then I would guess the Promethean does too. Its quite likely that they are using the same ICE power module from Bang & Olufsen. I'll crack mine open when it comes in.

They may, but if IIRC, so did the Shuttle 6.0, and there was a noticeable difference in "feel" between the LMII and Shuttle. Not worlds apart, but different as the preamps and limiting approach of each head is different. The power module is only one component of the total design. Of course it's up to each player to determine which design is the best for them. I'm certainly judging the Promethean based on my needs/wants.

 

[Smallequestrian]

They may, but if IIRC, so did the Shuttle 6.0, and there was a noticeable difference in "feel" between the LMII and Shuttle. Not worlds apart, but different as the preamps and limiting approach of each head is different. The power module is only one component of the total design. Of course it's up to each player to determine which design is the best for them. I'm certainly judging the Promethean based on my needs/wants.

Yeah, I didn't get along with the Shuttle very well either myself. I thought it was noticeably lacking in comparison to the Little Mark and did not like how the preamp was setup, but I understand why other people like it.

Of course I'l get to make my own observations soon enough, but I think you're characterization of the Ibanez appears to be a little premature based on how little experience you actually have with it.

 

[Eublet]

Of course I'l get to make my own observations soon enough, but I think you're characterization of the Ibanez appears to be a little premature based on how little experience you actually have with it.

Fair enough, and you could be right. I should qualify everything I'm posting as a first impression without having taken it on a single gig.

 

[macmrkt]

We have a Quick Review of the Promethean combo and head coming out in the next (yes, overdue) issue. I did compare it to other popular micro bass heads (mostly 500 watt rated models), and continue to do so, including several of the ones discussed here. I can say that the Promethean is on a par with all other micro heads I've tested in terms of volume and build-quality.

 

[X Ray]

TC's knowledge is in signal processing, which is the heart of what the rh450 does.

How so?

Other than that, it's just a power amp amplifying the signal, which they also have a good bit of experience with.

It's a CLASS D power amplifier, which not many companies have much experience with. "A good bit of experience" to me translates into a proven track record of long term reliability. Please explain how they have a good bit of experience with this amplifier topology.

But based on the small amount of time I had with one, I am very skeptical that it offers the power and punch of a Shuttle, LMII, much less the flexibility of the rh450.....

..........I will very likely pick one up to try out if enough good reports start coming in.

I just want to make sure I have the facts straight. You have in fact played through a Promethean......correct? Yet you wont buy one unless others like it? Don't take it the wrong way, as I'm not implying anything, but please understand that this is very confusing to me.

 

[Bassflute]

I'll bet if it's anything like their inexpensive basses, it's going to be a best seller, and probably the best in the price category.

I'd like to here it A/B'd with the shuttle 300/1x10. Like to get a micro amp sometime, might just bite the bullet and get one of these. Like the form factor a lot better than that big awkward contraption on top of the Genz-Benz.

Cheers,
Cameron

We have a Quick Review of the Promethean combo and head coming out in the next (yes, overdue) issue. I did compare it to other popular micro bass heads (mostly 500 watt rated models), and continue to do so, including several of the ones discussed here. I can say that the Promethean is on a par with all other micro heads I've tested in terms of volume and build-quality.

 

[Eublet]

How so?

Well, although it's not being advertised as such, everything that's going on inside the preamp of that head is happening in the digital realm. Bass players tend to pass on digital processing, even though if you go into a recording studio, everything in the processing is digital. All those great bass sounds we try to emulate on those recordings we love come from digital processing and mastering, but the general public seems to frown upon digital effects and such. TC is at the top of the game with regard to digital processing.

It's a CLASS D power amplifier, which not many companies have much experience with. "A good bit of experience" to me translates into a proven track record of long term reliability. Please explain how they have a good bit of experience with this amplifier topology.

There are a lot of companies then who are making these who don't have long term track records. The fact is that while these types of heads may still be somewhat new for bass players, they've been used in pro audio for a much longer time frame. There is nothing particularly space age about it. Of course if history of product line is important to you, then you have good reason to pass on TC for now.

I just want to make sure I have the facts straight. You have in fact played through a Promethean......correct? Yet you wont buy one unless others like it? Don't take it the wrong way, as I'm not implying anything, but please understand that this is very confusing to me.

Yes I have spent time with one. Yes, I won't buy one until I hear plenty of good reports on it. The same thing happened to me with the rh50, the LMII, and the Shuttle 6.0. I delayed purchasing all of them until the reports started rolling in. I've passed on the Carvin, GK, Eden, and a few other micro heads as well. I do this simply because I don't have the money to try everything, so I want to try things that I have a good bit of information on up front so that I can make wise choices on what I experiment with. There just aren't many gig reports here on this head yet.

 

[JimmyM]

I can understand Eublet's reasoning. Sound is only one part of the equation, and you can get that from most anything. And given that it's Ibanez, a company whose CS department greatly offended me 20 years ago by being totally unresponsive and rude to me (ever call a company and have them ask, "How did you get this number?"), I wouldn't trust them as far as I could throw their factory.

 

[X Ray]

Well, although it's not being advertised as such, everything that's going on inside the preamp of that head is happening in the digital realm. Bass players tend to pass on digital processing, even though if you go into a recording studio, everything in the processing is digital. All those great bass sounds we try to emulate on those recordings we love come from digital processing and mastering, but the general public seems to frown upon digital effects and such. TC is at the top of the game with regard to digital processing.

No need to waste time explaining the recording process or TC's place in the market. I used to own a recording studio and am currently working on the audio for a commercial that will be nationally televised. Regardless.......

........is it possible then that the TC's front end is a digital modeling circuit similar to a Line 6 product? I'll look into it more.

There are a lot of companies then who are making these (Class D amplifiers) who don't have long term track records.

I am very aware of this. This is the reason I was asking for clarification when you implied that TC has "a good bit of experience" with this particular topology.

Yes I have spent time with one. Yes, I won't buy one until I hear plenty of good reports on it. The same thing happened to me with the rh50, the LMII, and the Shuttle 6.0. I delayed purchasing all of them until the reports started rolling in. I've passed on the Carvin, GK, Eden, and a few other micro heads as well. I do this simply because I don't have the money to try everything, so I want to try things that I have a good bit of information on up front so that I can make wise choices on what I experiment with. There just aren't many gig reports here on this head yet.

So you've played this particular amplifier, yet you won't buy one unless others say it's a good amp. If YOU don't trust your own opinion, then why should we?

 

[Eublet]

........is it possible then that the TC's front end is a digital modeling circuit similar to a Line 6 product? I'll look into it more.

mmmm, modeling might be a stretch, although you could argue that the TubeTone is doing just that. But the EQ and Compression is definitely being done in bits from everything I've read.

I am very aware of this. This is the reason I was asking for clarification when you implied that TC has "a good bit of experience" with this particular topology.

I meant with the effects part of it. I know they have sister companies that have been doing this kind of thing for quite a while. I wonder how much they were utilized for this, if at all. I do know that Uffe, their VP Product Manager (or similar title), said that they did not outsource the power amplifier at all, but designed something from the ground up so that they could get the kind of feel they wanted from it.

So you've played this particular amplifier, yet you won't buy one unless others say it's a good amp. If YOU don't trust your own opinion, then why should we?

I trust my opinion fine. You're reading to much into this. I played around with the head briefly in a store and had likes/dislikes. Nothing really wowed me but at the same time it had promise. I don't test things just for fun, so I didn't buy it on the spot. If others report that it has a lot of promise in a gigging environment, I might get tempted and give it a whirl. But to me it sounded a bit like any ol' bass amp with a "drive" knob to add grit. The red face, graphic EQ, and other such knobs didn't really draw me to it to say the least. I felt the same way about several LMII's that I played with in the store. Others raved about it on the gig, so I bought one and found that over time I grew to love it, in spite of the yellow graphics, free turning knobs, lack of mute switch, etc.

 

[derrenleepoole]

FINALLY got a chance to do a quick comparison of the Promethean, the Genz Benz Shuttle, and a TC Electronic RH450. Not my best effort, and some sloppy playing, but it does show the dramatic tonal differences between the three amps...

Anyway, here's the link. Please be kind.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jCnC0n4txgA

That was great review, thanks. I was very impressed with the GB and Ibanez, the GB in particular - it sounded awesome. The TC reminded me a little bit of the original Superfly head, but I could explain why - a little flat maybe?

One criticism/observation (if I may) - maybe a demo using a more conventional, middle of the road jazz bass might be better? Not everyone can afford an F-bass, so for us mere mortals a standard J or P might provide a better comparison as this is what most people are likely to have. Does that make sense? Anyway, it's just a thought. But a great review nonetheless - thanks for taking the time to do it. Very helpful indeed.

 

[DonovanBankhead]

One criticism/observation (if I may) - maybe a demo using a more conventional, middle of the road jazz bass might be better?

That's true, but I bet the person who would be interested in purchasing a $1000 amp head probably has, has had, or is familiar with an active Jazz bass...

That being said, I do have a 1969 Fender Jazz I could use for the next video... Of course, most people don't have one of those lying around either.

To be honest, I don't own any "normal" gear...

 

[DonovanBankhead]

Okay, here's the link to Pt. 2. All of the amps were set flat for this recording:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzal2VXmpQ4

 

[JimmyM]

Nice strap, Donovan!

Wasn't as impressed with the Promethean in that clip as I was in the first. Liked its low end, but seemed to be rolled off and dull in the highs. Obviously you can EQ that back in, as your clips show, but that was my impression of it. I think I'd pick the Shuttle out of those three, though. I still think the TC sounds a bit overdone. I like the wide fat tone but there's just something about it that isn't resonating with me. Kind of sounds processed, like it's coming out of a multi-effect unit rather than an amp. I don't know...all of them would sound great on a gig, but I'd still go with the Shuttle. I'd have to bump it a little in the midbass and lower mids (or use a Precision ), but I think overall it had the best tone.