Ibanez SR5BBLTD: Poor Man's Fodera

[NeonVomit]

You have to be an endorser to get an LACS Ibanez. For regular folks the Prestige stuff is the top of the line, made in Japan. the Premium stuff is made in Indonesia, but those builders were all taught (to some degree at least) my the J Craft Team in Japan.

I'm guessing the Gerald Veasly signature model is a custom shop job, then... I mean, it had better be, given that over here it's more expensive than a USA Spector or almost any Warwick.

Edit: Yep, just double checked... you can get a USA Spector NS 6XL (i.e. the neck-thru model) for 3,750 GBP from bassdirect, while the Ibanez GV1006 is 4,359. For comparison, Warwick Thumb NT will set you back 4,250. Wow.

 

[hover]

Just keep remembering that every other luthier / craftsperson in the entire world is inferior to Fodera, and we can all go home now.



I mean, there's just NO FREAKING WAY that bass could ever be as good, because it's an import Ibanez. I mean...just confirming here. ( again )

 

[NeonVomit]

I see what you did there.

 

[Dr. Cheese]

This is a fun thread. I did not think it would run over 100 posts. Personally, I do not throw around the term "a poor man's -" lightly. I only use it when I see an item that is relatively inexpensive that is high quality that reminds me of something that is expensive and highly sought after.

I know I am proud to own and play my Cirrus, and I say that as someone who owned w Ken Smith for three years. Similarly, I am sure that this SR5BBLTD will light up stages whenever it is played.

 

[DWBass]

Check out the BTB line. 19mm is the spacing for 5'ers. 17 for 6's

Problem is I like the SR body shape over the BTB's.

 

[DWBass]

This is true. It is a striking bass, though....speaking of which:

The one bass brand I have never owned is an Ibanez and really can't see dropping any major coin on this one in the near future.

Riis

I gigged a SR505 for about 10 years. Great bass. I only got rid of it when I discovered basses with 19mm string spacing. Were way more comfortable.

 

[NeonVomit]

This is a fun thread. I did not think it would run over 100 posts. Personally, I do not throw around the term "a poor man's -" lightly. I only use it when I see an item that is relatively inexpensive that is high quality that reminds me of something that is expensive and highly sought after.

I know I am proud to own and play my Cirrus, and I say that as someone who owned w Ken Smith for three years. Similarly, I am sure that this SR5BBLTD will light up stages whenever it is played.

The thread opened up a lot of discussion! About perceived vs. actual value and how different manufacturers stack up.

A friend of mine says once you get over the 2k+ mark (in GBP, so that would translate to about $3k USD), you're not paying for quality any more, you're paying for cosmetics and branding. I don't really agree with that, but it's an interesting point.

What's the 'cut-off' point for actual value? Up to where does craftsmanship and materials and technology go in terms of price? And I'm not talking about gold-plated hardware and crazy inlays and artwork and cosmetic stuff like that. I'm talking about the instrument. I guess exotic tops count.

(It's good to remember that the really super high-end electric instruments pale in comparison to acoustic instruments of the very highest order - you're talking 10 grand for a cello from the finest active luthiers, easy. I feel humbled when I see what the top orchestral double bass players pay for their instruments, and I'm not even talking about the antique ones.)

 

[Eidolon0274]

I was actually on a wait list for one of these, until I found out it is made in Indonesia! For more than a prestige! No way, as nice as the bass is its robbery.

 

[Dr. Cheese]

The thread opened up a lot of discussion! About perceived vs. actual value and how different manufacturers stack up.

A friend of mine says once you get over the 2k+ mark (in GBP, so that would translate to about $3k USD), you're not paying for quality any more, you're paying for cosmetics and branding. I don't really agree with that, but it's an interesting point.

What's the 'cut-off' point for actual value? Up to where does craftsmanship and materials and technology go in terms of price? And I'm not talking about gold-plated hardware and crazy inlays and artwork and cosmetic stuff like that. I'm talking about the instrument. I guess exotic tops count.

(It's good to remember that the really super high-end electric instruments pale in comparison to acoustic instruments of the very highest order - you're talking 10 grand for a cello from the finest active luthiers, easy. I feel humbled when I see what the top orchestral double bass players pay for their instruments, and I'm not even talking about the antique ones.)

I think that for large companies like Music Man or Fender, you are still paying for quality up to $2,500. Beyond that you are paying for intangibles. For boutique makers, it is hard to draw a line because things like location could dramatically affect their bottom lines. I have no doubt that Fodera would be just as good if it were made in St. Louis, but it would surely cost 20 or 25% less.

 

[Got2SadowskyNYC]

These basses loaded with the Nordstrand Bis Singles lack only one thing. A passive tone control. The preamp is great, but in passive mode those pickups really shine and a passive tone would be very useful.

If the string spacing wasn't so narrow I'd have one.

 

[nostatic]

I think that for large companies like Music Man or Fender, you are still paying for quality up to $2,500. Beyond that you are paying for intangibles. For boutique makers, it is hard to draw a line because things like location could dramatically affect their bottom lines. I have no doubt that Fodera would be just as good if it were made in St. Louis, but it would surely cost 20 or 25% less.

Labor costs are the largest factor in a boutique, and one that people often neglect. The reality is that the parts are only so expensive (there are quality differences unless the builder is using stock parts from Hipshot, AllParts, etc), and wood is wood unless you're talking rare/beautiful pieces. Beyond that it mostly is how many people are required to get an instrument from start to shipped, and how much do those people cost. Frankly many small luthiers don't make very much money if you calculate an effective "hourly" pay. Plus they often either don't have health/retirement benefits (or short change those). Fodera gets called out all the time on TB as being "stupid expensive," and their prices have gone up over the past 5 years. But part of that is because employees have benefits that many take for granted, and they are in an expensive part of the country. So it is all relative. From the end customer standpoint the purchase price is an objective number, and if you can get your dream instrument for less money, then it is win/win. I'm sure some wish that Fodera was based in a cheaper part of the country, hoping that prices would be less. But it isn't. And part of what makes the place Fodera is that it is in NY, in the heart of a busy music scene where A-level players are common-place and often can be found at the shop. You don't get that kind of scene in many other parts of the country.

That isn't to say that Fodera is "the best" - they make a great instrument, have amazing customer service, and you pay a premium price for it. Whether it is worth it or not depends on what is important to you and what you're looking for. There are a lot of great small builders that also provide great customer service - and for less money. But it isn't a Fodera. Just like a Fodera isn't an Alembic, and and Alembic isn't a Ken Lawrence, etc. Tons of awesome instruments out there if you want to pay top dollar, and perhaps more germane to this thread, there are also really good production instruments that get you a lot of quality for a lot less money.

 

[StayLow]

A friend of mine says once you get over the 2k+ mark (in GBP, so that would translate to about $3k USD), you're not paying for quality any more, you're paying for cosmetics and branding. I don't really agree with that, but it's an interesting point.

What's the 'cut-off' point for actual value? Up to where does craftsmanship and materials and technology go in terms of price? And I'm not talking about gold-plated hardware and crazy inlays and artwork and cosmetic stuff like that. I'm talking about the instrument. I guess exotic tops count.

Exotic tops are definitely purely a cosmetic thing.

As someone with several basses costing over $5k, I totally agree with your friend. I'd put it closer to $2500 USD. Beyond that is cachet, cosmetics, and whatever operating costs the maker wilfully bears such as being located in NYC, all of which have nothing to do with with sound, reliability or functionality.

Actually, as the owner of several cheaper basses, I might have to lower that to $500. That's what I paid for my SBMM Ray34CA, replete with a $150+ premium "soft/hard" case. Used, but it would've been about $700 new. Do I prefer it to my NYC Sadowsky? No. Is it every bit as functional and reliable? Yes, actually it is. Arguably the fretwork isn't as good, but it is excellent and more than good enough for whatever one might want to do on it.

On topic of Ibanez the BTB I once had was fantastic. Didn't like the looks, weight, ergonomics, but as far as function it was as good as any of my other basses costing in some cases 10x as much. And it had a fancy top wood too.

With respect to the bass originally mentioned in this tread, I don't care at all where it's made so long as it's made well for the price. It seems to be. I have no idea where the Fodera comparison comes in other than the burl top though.

 

[raventepes]

Problem is I like the SR body shape over the BTB's.

I'll be honest...I do too. For me, even though I have all intentions of getting a BTB1406 in the near future, the body itself is a bit of a compromise for me. It has all the right specs I'm looking for.

 

[D. Gallis]

I'd take this over a Fodera, but that's just me

and on that note - can we call Fender a poor man's Sadowsky?

 

[Bassworship1]

To me even if I could afford it I wouldn't want to put 5-10 thousand into a bass guitar. I'm a 4-5 night a week regular gigging and I want something that sounds great and is reliable. I just happened to finally settle on the Ibanez Premium and Prestige basses for my regulars. It would be hard for me to find anything comparable price wise to what I have now. I would like to someday add Prestige 5005. I've never had the pleasure of seeing one in person.

 

[Dr. Cheese]

I have no idea where the Fodera comparison comes in other than the burl top though.

I said that I compared it to a Fodera because the Buckeye Burl and Nordstrand pickups with Buckeye Burl covers looked like a Fodera to me. That's all.

 

[Dr. Cheese]

Labor costs are the largest factor in a boutique, and one that people often neglect. The reality is that the parts are only so expensive (there are quality differences unless the builder is using stock parts from Hipshot, AllParts, etc), and wood is wood unless you're talking rare/beautiful pieces. Beyond that it mostly is how many people are required to get an instrument from start to shipped, and how much do those people cost. Frankly many small luthiers don't make very much money if you calculate an effective "hourly" pay. Plus they often either don't have health/retirement benefits (or short change those). Fodera gets called out all the time on TB as being "stupid expensive," and their prices have gone up over the past 5 years. But part of that is because employees have benefits that many take for granted, and they are in an expensive part of the country. So it is all relative. From the end customer standpoint the purchase price is an objective number, and if you can get your dream instrument for less money, then it is win/win. I'm sure some wish that Fodera was based in a cheaper part of the country, hoping that prices would be less. But it isn't. And part of what makes the place Fodera is that it is in NY, in the heart of a busy music scene where A-level players are common-place and often can be found at the shop. You don't get that kind of scene in many other parts of the country.

That isn't to say that Fodera is "the best" - they make a great instrument, have amazing customer service, and you pay a premium price for it. Whether it is worth it or not depends on what is important to you and what you're looking for. There are a lot of great small builders that also provide great customer service - and for less money. But it isn't a Fodera. Just like a Fodera isn't an Alembic, and and Alembic isn't a Ken Lawrence, etc. Tons of awesome instruments out there if you want to pay top dollar, and perhaps more germane to this thread, there are also really good production instruments that get you a lot of quality for a lot less money.

Trust me, I am not worried about whether Fodera is better than or as good as any other bass. The bottom line is lots of great players love them, and I am sure that you guys know what you are doing.

Personally, I am no pro. I am not even that good of a player. I just love basses. I am very content with what own even though I will pick up new stuff from time to time.

 

[nostatic]

and I am sure that you guys know what you are doing.

not sure my ex-wives would agree...

 

[jim777]

I'm guessing the Gerald Veasly signature model is a custom shop job, then... I mean, it had better be, given that over here it's more expensive than a USA Spector or almost any Warwick.

Edit: Yep, just double checked... you can get a USA Spector NS 6XL (i.e. the neck-thru model) for 3,750 GBP from bassdirect, while the Ibanez GV1006 is 4,359. For comparison, Warwick Thumb NT will set you back 4,250. Wow.

No, the Gerald Veasley GV1006 you buy in a store is a Prestige instrument made by the "team J Craft" guys in Japan. The one, and I mean the exact one that Gerald plays was made in the LA Custom Shop, almost certainly by Tak Hosono himself, but that's it. Literally, if you are not an endorser then your guitar is not made in the Custom shop. Steve Vai's guitars are made in Japan as well - though he may get the occasional neck from LACS the guitars are not one offs. The idea that there is a Custom shop level above Prestige isn't really true. And 0% of all the Ibanezes out there with that "CUSTOM MADE" inlay are actually custom made.

 

[jim777]

The thread opened up a lot of discussion! About perceived vs. actual value and how different manufacturers stack up.

A friend of mine says once you get over the 2k+ mark (in GBP, so that would translate to about $3k USD), you're not paying for quality any more, you're paying for cosmetics and branding. I don't really agree with that, but it's an interesting point.

What's the 'cut-off' point for actual value? Up to where does craftsmanship and materials and technology go in terms of price? And I'm not talking about gold-plated hardware and crazy inlays and artwork and cosmetic stuff like that. I'm talking about the instrument. I guess exotic tops count.

(It's good to remember that the really super high-end electric instruments pale in comparison to acoustic instruments of the very highest order - you're talking 10 grand for a cello from the finest active luthiers, easy. I feel humbled when I see what the top orchestral double bass players pay for their instruments, and I'm not even talking about the antique ones.)

That's true to a degree, but at that price point you are also paying for personal preference. When you buy a Smith you pretty much get what Ken knows works - there isn't a lot of options available to you. No Ash and Wenge necks for example. With MTD or Fodera you can get a ton of different wood combinations all tailored to your exact specifications. The catch there is you really ought to know what you want, or you could easily end up with something pretty that doesn't sound the way you wanted it to or hoped it would. And a Smith or Fodera or STR or what have you will not hide mistakes either- basses at that caliber might make you a better player, but usually because they don't hide your flaws for you.