iOS Bass Players Thread #6 - World Domination

[claudel]

I've figured out that there are many adjustable parameters, thanks.

I was wondering if an amp in Bias/JamUp was actually modelled or if the differences from one to the next were just from different parameter settings...

I ask because the various parameters and most of the controls ( besides the tone stacks ) seem to be pretty much the same for each...

So, are the differences due to different settings, or do they start from different places?

Sorry if I'm not asking this one very well...

 

[PDGood]

They are different amps. While the parameter options are the same, they do appear to have a different baked in sound to begin with.

 

[claudel]

Thanks, I was having trouble getting a few of the amps to sound much like their namesakes
( Vox, HiWatt... ) and was wondering how they were virtually built.

After the last upgrade and as I get more tuned in to how things work I'm getting closer.

More of an issue with guitar than bass for me, although I'd like to see the B15, Red
and Acoustic make their way into Bias too, along with more toob selections...

and the kitchen sink.

 

[PDGood]

Yeah, the Hiwatt to me didn't sound anything like a Hiwatt (although I admit my experience is limited).

 

[claudel]

I'm getting closer to Leeds with the HiWay lately but there's something still missing.

Rangemaster sim, probably...

One of the tricks with Bias/JamUp seems to me to involve keeping the gain staging in the green.

Once things start getting up in the yellow/red the subtle differences between amps seem to go away and sounds become generic.

I've been redoing my patches to accommodate this theory and have been pleased with the results...

 

[PDGood]

I'm getting closer to Leeds with the HiWay lately but there's something still missing.

Rangemaster sim, probably...

One of the tricks with Bias/JamUp seems to me to involve keeping the gain staging in the green.

Once things start getting up in the yellow/red the subtle differences between amps seem to go away and sounds become generic.

I've been redoing my patches to accommodate this theory and have been pleased with the results...

+1
This makes sense because when you're in the yellow/red you're introducing input overdrive which gets added to everything else.

The user presets in BIAS are really great. There's one for an Orange amp that is incredible. I hated the stock Orange sound.

 

[Duke21]

They are different amps. While the parameter options are the same, they do appear to have a different baked in sound to begin with.

Good question, but I do not know the answer, thus there might be hidden stuff which we do not see. One could try to take two different amps and swap everything on one amp to match the other. If they sound the same you know the answer.

 

[fbny71]

I haven't checked into this thread in ages. Lots of you are doing awesome things.

I have a question about using Jamup up but only for the effect models not the amp models. If I wanted to use the amp models I could plug into my amps effects loop and bypass the amp's pre correct? But if I want to use my amp's pre would I take the output from jam up and go into the input of the app?

The reason being that sometimes I would use my amp and would only want Jamup for the effects but other times I would use Jamup for the amp sims and the effects and go straight to the PA. So essentially I want to have two sets of presets one with amps and one just effects to use depending on whether I will use my amp or not.

Suggestions…

 

[PDGood]

I haven't checked into this thread in ages. Lots of you are doing awesome things.

I have a question about using Jamup up but only for the effect models not the amp models. If I wanted to use the amp models I could plug into my amps effects loop and bypass the amp's pre correct? But if I want to use my amp's pre would I take the output from jam up and go into the input of the app?

The reason being that sometimes I would use my amp and would only want Jamup for the effects but other times I would use Jamup for the amp sims and the effects and go straight to the PA. So essentially I want to have two sets of presets one with amps and one just effects to use depending on whether I will use my amp or not.

Suggestions…

The problem with running amp sims through the effects loop is that you get a mix of the sim and the actual amp you are running through - so you can't hear much difference between the sim models. However, if you run directly into the front of your real amp, you are only hearing an amplified version of the amp sim. Yeah, I know it is double pre-amping but it works - all you have to do is to keep the pre in your real amp low enough that it doesn't distort. (You can always get distortion with the sim if needed).

Also, I think the latency may be shorter going directly in, but I'm not 100% sure about that.

But when I run effects only, then I do use the effects loop, because in that case you DO want some dry signal to keep the bottom end in your sound.

 

[lokikallas]

I haven't checked into this thread in ages. Lots of you are doing awesome things.

I have a question about using Jamup up but only for the effect models not the amp models. If I wanted to use the amp models I could plug into my amps effects loop and bypass the amp's pre correct? But if I want to use my amp's pre would I take the output from jam up and go into the input of the app?

The reason being that sometimes I would use my amp and would only want Jamup for the effects but other times I would use Jamup for the amp sims and the effects and go straight to the PA. So essentially I want to have two sets of presets one with amps and one just effects to use depending on whether I will use my amp or not.

Suggestions…

You can usually go into the fx return loop to bypass the pre in your amp. Some amps have a power amp in, this would do the same thing. The volume is then completely controlled by jamup.

 

[Duke21]

The problem with running amp sims through the effects loop is that you get a mix of the sim and the actual amp you are running through - so you can't hear much difference between the sim models. However, if you run directly into the front of your real amp, you are only hearing an amplified version of the amp sim. Yeah, I know it is double pre-amping but it works - all you have to do is to keep the pre in your real amp low enough that it doesn't distort. (You can always get distortion with the sim if needed).

Also, I think the latency may be shorter going directly in, but I'm not 100% sure about that.

But when I run effects only, then I do use the effects loop, because in that case you DO want some dry signal to keep the bottom end in your sound.

The opposite. You do not want to run Jamup on front of an amp as the preamp will color your Jamup tone. Effect return is the place to use as it bypasses the preamp. The power amp will not color the tone as much as the preamp

 

[PDGood]

The opposite. You do not want to run Jamup on front of an amp as the preamp will color your Jamup tone. Effect return is the place to use as it bypasses the preamp. The power amp will not color the tone as much as the preamp

I see your point, but the problem with using the effects loop is that you get a blend of dry signal with the amp sim - and it's a lot of dry signal (unless you're driving your I/O device into distortion). So what you're really getting is just a little tweaking of your real amps tone. Hey, I'm not sayin' that's a bad thing - I can use that to fatten my tone or brighten it in some new ways. But it doesn't give nearly as much difference in tone when you go from one amp sim to the other as you get running in the front end - if you keep the real amps pre low. Either way you are coloring. In the front end you're coloring the amp sim with some of your amp. When you run in the loop, you're coloring the real amp with some of the amp sim. The front end shows more of the sim.

The ideal way would be as lokikallas suggested - run directly into the power stage of the real amp - but most amps don't have this feature. Eden does. My Markbass and Ampegs don't.

 

[SolarMan]

And if a more ACDC style rock is your taste, here is the latest Rude Duke tune, BIAS / Jamup for bass and guitars:
http://soundcloud.com/rude-duke/rock-n-roll-tonight

Very nice. Lots of work in that one!

 

[fbny71]

When I connect my iPad through the effects loop on my Trace amp head, the preamp is completely disabled- pre shape, graphic EQ, compressor- don't do anything at all. Even the gain is disabled, only the master volume works. Maybe if I completed the loop rather than just connect the iPad's output to the the effect loop's return it would enable the amp's pre again.

I guess I could take the effect loop send to the Alesis IO dock's input then that's output to the effect loop's return and just plug my bass into the amp's input. I should have tried that last night...any reason that would fry my amp?

 

[claudel]

Good question, but I do not know the answer, thus there might be hidden stuff which we do not see. One could try to take two different amps and swap everything on one amp to match the other. If they sound the same you know the answer.

That's why I asked...

I was getting too close to the same tone in different amps with the same settings, but it might have been because
I was not staging the gain properly. That seems to cause tones to lose their individual character for me.

I've been reworking patches and find that the individual amp model quirks are more evident when I keep the levels down.

The term I was looking for is "circuit modeling", although that might not be the proper term either...

It'd be nice if the name of the basic circuit ( AC30, SVT, etc... ) was displayed
somewhere in the edit screen so that one would know what one is working with...

So many feature requests...

 

[BluesMan845]

I see your point, but the problem with using the effects loop is that you get a blend of dry signal with the amp sim - and it's a lot of dry signal (unless you're driving your I/O device into distortion). So what you're really getting is just a little tweaking of your real amps tone. Hey, I'm not sayin' that's a bad thing - I can use that to fatten my tone or brighten it in some new ways. But it doesn't give nearly as much difference in tone when you go from one amp sim to the other as you get running in the front end - if you keep the real amps pre low. Either way you are coloring. In the front end you're coloring the amp sim with some of your amp. When you run in the loop, you're coloring the real amp with some of the amp sim. The front end shows more of the sim.

The ideal way would be as lokikallas suggested - run directly into the power stage of the real amp - but most amps don't have this feature. Eden does. My Markbass and Ampegs don't.

Hmm. I would tend to agree with Duke but maybe some amps differ in where the effect loop input falls? I don't see going into the pre or the standard input jack as a way of getting a signal that is "less" colored by the amps characteristic sound. Normally I would think going into an effect loop input, you will bypass all the tone shaping of the amplifier and be going into the power amp section, this getting a more accurately produced sound from you JamUp presets.

How are you getting a blend of a dry signal if the only signal you are sending is from JamUp?

 

[fbny71]

Hmm. I would tend to agree with Duke but maybe some amps differ in where the effect loop input falls? I don't see going into the pre or the standard input jack as a way of getting a signal that is "less" colored by the amps characteristic sound. Normally I would think going into an effect loop input, you will bypass all the tone shaping of the amplifier and be going into the power amp section, this getting a more accurately produced sound from you JamUp presets.

How are you getting a blend of a dry signal if the only signal you are sending is from JamUp?

I think I'm bypassing the pre altogether when I go through the effects loop because none of the tone shaping effects work when I do this. I'm going to have to try closing the loop as I mentioned in my previous post and plugging my bass into the amp's regular input to see if I can use my amp's sound and only the effect sims from Jamup through the loop.

The end result I'm looking for is a set of presets using only effects but NO amps since I'll have my amp's sound. I will have another set of presets WITH amp sims AND effects for when I travel lighter and go straight to the PA with my Behringer bdi21.

 

[FEF]

I used an RTA to try and get the amp as flat as possible. I think I've even seen an RTA app. In that case, you'd use a tone generator (all kinds of apps from android, too), and sample with the iOS device.

I got close enough for jazz with my GK 200MB.

 

[PDGood]

Hmm. I would tend to agree with Duke but maybe some amps differ in where the effect loop input falls? I don't see going into the pre or the standard input jack as a way of getting a signal that is "less" colored by the amps characteristic sound. Normally I would think going into an effect loop input, you will bypass all the tone shaping of the amplifier and be going into the power amp section, this getting a more accurately produced sound from you JamUp presets.

How are you getting a blend of a dry signal if the only signal you are sending is from JamUp?

Hmmm...not sure how to answer that - here is how I wire it:

1. Input bass into I/O input connected to iPad. Output from I/O goes to front of amp. (This is where I hear the most difference in amp sims and they actually sound like the individual amps). My real preamp is as low as it can go without being off and I primarily use the master volume.

2. Input bass into front of amp. Use Effects Send to go to input of I/O device. Output of I/O device into Effects return. (This is how I run when I use effects only. Real amp dry signal is mixed with iPad settings which is ideal for effects but on the amp sims, not so much).

These settings work very well for me, but if there's another option I'm open to suggestion. It's all a learning process.

 

[BluesMan845]

I think I'm bypassing the pre altogether when I go through the effects loop because none of the tone shaping effects work when I do this. I'm going to have to try closing the loop as I mentioned in my previous post and plugging my bass into the amp's regular input to see if I can use my amp's sound and only the effect sims from Jamup through the loop.

The end result I'm looking for is a set of presets using only effects but NO amps since I'll have my amp's sound. I will have another set of presets WITH amp sims AND effects for when I travel lighter and go straight to the PA with my Behringer bdi21.

I see, well in this case you should go through the standard input so you have access to your amps preamp and tone controls. Otherwise you won't have the sound of you amp and it might be a bit sterile if you aren't using amp models within JamUp.