Is All Tube Worth It?

[seamonkey]

"Listening tests indicate to causes for differences in perceived sound of tube and transistor guitar amplifiers. These are ripple intermodulation distortion and frequency response differences caused by the reactive speaker load interaction with the output impedance of the amplifier. Although ripple intermodulation distortion is easily detected by trained listeners, only one of seventeen test subjects was able to detect it without tranining. The change in frequency response caused by the high output impedance of the tube amp is by far the predominant cause for differences.

The differences in speaker damping were not detected by the listeners. Also not detected were the differences in the harmonic content of an overloaded signal in teh power amplifiers."

Aside from the guy who picked out the IM distortion, the other test subjects were able to reliably tell there was a difference, but not reliably pick which one was which. I agree that it's a statistically insignificant number of study participants; however, they were able to detect a difference between the two on more than just a distortion level.

Like it says in the paper, You can replicate the tube amp eq curve by just adding a resistor to the output of the SS amp. Or you can EQ it, like they did for the study.

IM ripple is not "good" distortion. Maybe the good musicians just tune it out so they don't hear it.

 

[JimmyM]

Nope, I'm afraid not.

so the distortion level doesn't decrease as the volume decreases? funny, but i find that to be exactly the case.

 

[dbhokie]

I repair a lot of boards and circuitry. The truth is the manufactured boards are coming down in price so much that working at the component level simply isn't worth it most of the time. If buying the board < (time to spend)(hourly rate)+(component cost) then you buy the board (unless you are doing it for yourself of course). SS boards are quite easy to fix, but I have never had a problem fixing any tube stuff either, well I take that back old, tube amps have caused me issues finding compatible transformers and tubes a couple times, but rarely.

 

[seamonkey]

OK, thanks for admitting that you have don't any credibility here. That's a shame though, IMHO.

It seems some on forum tend to focus on the person and not the argument. Nothing different than many internet forums. I'm not perfect myself. But I try hard to stay away from personal jabs.

 

[cheezewiz]

It seems some on forum tend to focus on the person and not the argument. Nothing different than many internet forums. I'm not perfect myself. But I try hard to stay away from personal jabs.

You have no experience with tube amps, therefore, you have no credibility on the topic. Nothing personal about that.

 

[JimmyM]

Search this board. Jimmy already did recordings of different amps, pedals, etc. and statistically people couldn't tell a difference.

Then the argument of the "feel" of the amp comes out. The old IEEE paper didn't mention "feel" form the guitar players. So a real double blind would have to be done by each player with amps behind an opaque barrier, to see if they hear or feel a difference.

see, this is the downfall of your whole argument. it is absolutely true that statistically people couldn't tell the difference between my recordings. and the vt does an amazing job of sounding like a recording of an svt.

but recordings aren't the only way we listen to music. and while it does sound very good live to use those devices like the vt or whatever, it doesn't take long to figure out the differences when you hear it coming out of the amp. and that's why the people in that survey you like to quote were able to tell the difference more reliably when the differences were pointed out. and that's why everyone i work with likes it better when i use the svt or b-15. they like the micro vr too, but i figure if the drummer can tell the difference between the two, others can, too

anyway, sorry about your credibility loss, but you came by it honestly. to discuss tube reliability like you're an expert when you've never owned a tube amp, or to dissect the design and attritube those clamping diodes to the distortion you get out of them when you really have no clue what they do, or just generally popping into tube amp threads to tell us we're morons for liking them over the latest amp sim when you've never used one, what would you think would happen to your credibility?

 

[aborgman]

so the distortion level doesn't decrease as the volume decreases? funny, but i find that to be exactly the case.

Yes, the distortion level decreases as the output power decreases.

...but it doesn't decrease below a couple percent.

If I had to guess, an SVT running at 1 watt output power is probably like 2% THD, and it approaches 4-5% at full output power.

 

[Passinwind]

It seems some on forum tend to focus on the person and not the argument. Nothing different than many internet forums. I'm not perfect myself. But I try hard to stay away from personal jabs.

Nothing personal here. You said it, not me.

 

[agedhorse]

Like it says in the paper, You can replicate the tube amp eq curve by just adding a resistor to the output of the SS amp.

Completely untrue. You can replicate (reasonably closely) the RESISTIVE portion of the damping factor effect, but not the reactive part. There's a LOT more going on than a resistor on the output of a solid state amp when comparing with a tube amp.

 

[LGT]

I don't have much credibility on this topic, but from what I know, your sound is for you (and the band.) You're also generally going to know what amp you're using, so that's going to affect your perception. If that perception is good, then what the heck? Use that amp!

 

[Count Bassie]

If I had to guess, an SVT running at 1 watt output power is probably like 2% THD, and it approaches 4-5% at full output power.

Must be what we like about that sound, I guess.

...from what I know, your sound is for you (and the band.) You're also generally going to know what amp you're using, so that's going to affect your perception. If that perception is good, then what the heck? Use that amp!

So back to the op, it's worth it if you are getting your mojo on with it!

 

[chadds]

I love Tubeliciousness!
Double Blind Tests have a weakness.
When testees (watch it!) were asked if they heard a difference between digital watch tones they would say no. If testees were instead asked, "describe the differences you hear", they would wax poetic for minutes.
Oh and I love Tubeliciousness!
& a few SS devices that sound like I like them to

 

[GrowlerBox]

My guess is he works for a company involved in modeling and he is shilling.

I've asked in a couple of other threads regarding the agenda, and for once (or twice), he was silent.

He continues to appeal to various versions of the "argument not the man" hokum, but I am certain understands all too well the requirement that interests be disclosed if arguments are to be taken seriously. No statement is made in a vacuum.

Unless that statement is made inside a tube, I guess.

 

[cheezewiz]

I've asked in a couple of other threads regarding the agenda, and for once (or twice), he was silent.

He continues to appeal to various versions of the "argument not the man" hokum, but I am certain understands all too well the requirement that interests be disclosed if arguments are to be taken seriously. No statement is made in a vacuum.

Unless that statement is made inside a tube, I guess.

If you ask him how many tube amps he's played through, he'll be silent about that too.

 

[Count Bassie]

Seamonkey must have a valid reason for his pursuit here. But it's not necessarily related to the op if it doesn't help to come up with a conclusion that can substantiate an opinion (which is what this all boils down to). So far it's only perpetuated divisiveness and some dismissive banter, so it stands to reason it's not substantiating anything.

Back to the subject: I say tube power-sections are worth it- but I care quite a lot about being inspired by the sound I can make. If you hear me doing a warm-up exercise before a gig, you won't likely hear anything mind-blowing- no choppy wanking, no ripping references to much... just "Duh-duh-duh..." up and down the neck. But when the band plays, and if we're in the good pocket, pretty soon we see sparks-a-flyin'! But that all needs inspiration... the sound has to be a happy event, or that's a little harder to come by for me.

So if inspiration weighs 91 lbs, I'll take it.

 

[Jimmy Blue]

Tube Guy myself, played them in the 70's then moved to SS. Have a very nice 1998 Eden Metro that with a sans amp can get close to a tubey sound but not quite. For my 50th I bought myself an SVT-CL and haven't looked back. When gigging usually have a band mate to help load in and out so weight really isn't a problem. Just play through what you like. No one in the audience is gonna notice the difference so it's really what floats your boat. I had a Bassman 135 for nearly 20 years and never had a problem with it. The Eden has been the shop once.

 

[GrowlerBox]

Seamonkey must have a valid reason for his pursuit here.

Why must he? People do all sorts of things without good or valid reasons. And part of demonstrating that one has good and valid reasons for upholding a particular position is disclosing one's interest (financial and otherwise) in the subject at hand. In my field (medicine), opinions and studies that are not accompanied by such disclosures are summarily dismissed as useless at best, and dangerous at worst.

But it's not necessarily related to the op if it doesn't help to come up with a conclusion that can substantiate an opinion (which is what this all boils down to). So far it's only perpetuated divisiveness and some dismissive banter, so it stands to reason it's not substantiating anything.

By now, divisiveness and banter are the only reasons for starting a thread like this, which happen at least once a month, all end up the same way and ultimately get closed down. I suspect that this one is well on its way.

 

[woody357]

I recently play threw a SVT amp, don&#8217;t know what the cabinet was but it wasn&#8217;t 810s, and I&#8217;ve used a friends Mesa. I said this to say there is a big difference in tone, and yes feel than a SS amp. I have spent more money looking for this sound, just to use someone else&#8217;s stuff and realize I have been wasting money. I have yet to play a SS that can truly do tube, but I&#8217;ve heard that the GB&#8217;s Streamliners can. If the Streamliner can great, if it can&#8217;t I&#8217;ll have to carry the heavy stuff to get what I want.
I really don&#8217;t think anyone young or old (I) really want to carry a heavy amp and cabinet to and from gigs, but sometimes, that&#8217;s what gives you the sound you want. With good PA support, and a good sound person you really don&#8217;t need more than stage volume, but without that PA support you have to bring the pain!

 

[Rufus]

By now, divisiveness and banter are the only reasons for starting a thread like this, which happen at least once a month, all end up the same way and ultimately get closed down. I suspect that this one is well on its way.

Shakes head and laughs....and I'll continue to read every thread about tube amps...I only use a tube pre, but I always brag about how awesome tubes are. I leave all the tech talk to my amp tech, meanwhile I love to hear my sound coming out of my setup. How vain!

It's worth it!

 

[lesmarshall]

I am a guitar player and gear nut , but have recently been playing bass and began accumulating bass amps this year-- all solid state or tube hybrids. It's funny because I (and most guitar players) would never consider playing an electric guitar thru a solid state guitar amp , primarily because nothing comes close to matching the sweet overdriven and edge of break-up tone that you get when the power tubes are driven to distortion or the shimmery cleans when not pushed . Having said that, if my guitar heads weighed as much as an all tube bass head, I would look for other options too. Unlike in the guitar world , bass players have good alternatives to the weight issue in the wide selection of very good solid state amps. Also, the cost of a good solid state amp is generally much less than an all tube amp , so it makes the decision to go solid state all the much easier ( I can buy four solid state amps for what I generally have paid for a boutique tube guitar amp ). I don't doubt that many bass players prefer the tone, quickness , etc. of solid state bass amps , but I wonder how many would have made the switch if an all tube bass amp cost and weighed the same as a solid state amp.