Isn't neck dive simply a builders flaw?

[darkstorm]

No. There are times when the desired asthetic, isnt gonna jive with balanced weight so the bass or guitar when hanging by itself tilts upward. Theres also those who want their instrument to balance on their knee horizontally. So it doesnt roll off rearward, like it would if balance for no neck dive. A recent poster bragged about how his new bass did just that. He doesnt want instrument balance for playing while standing. And is more into playing while sitting.

But back to the desired asthetics. A longer upper horn, or a smaller body even though is useing lightweight wood like mahogany, may fit the desired asthetic of neck to body visuals. Yet be rather disatrous for neck dive. Course this could often be fixed via headless neck design. But here its hard to make one that really allows well for regular single ball end strings. Thus taking away from desired player string brand choices.

It can be argued that neck diving instruments more have the sitting player in mind rather then the standing player.

The SG guitar is probably one of the most famous neck divers yet most desireablhy and liked body shapes. Even though is neck dive city in many cases. Yet a thicker or bigger body would take away from its asthetics and feel. So players put up with neck dive cause its a sg. And that smallish mahogany body conbtributes to sg sound. Thunderbird bass is somewhat the same thing.

 

[phatbass]

A well designed/made bass should balance perfectly.


Why even play a bass that has neck dive issues?

Yes.

But I still want a Flying V Bass...

 

[D.A.R.K.]

Neck dive can cause injuries. Maybe neck dive will become extinct if enough players could prove in court how the pressure that's placed on their wrist destroyed their ability to play.

that's a bit too far.
if i decide to use a product that harms me personally, i should try to make a law that limits artistic design?
everyone is different, instruments that might be perfect for someone else might be physically straining for me.
doesn't mean they shouldn't be made...
why make others pay for one persons preference or stupidity?

 

[TheSuzie]

that's a bit too far.
if i decide to use a product that harms me personally, i should try to make a law that limits artistic design?
everyone is different, instruments that might be perfect for someone else might be physically straining for me.
doesn't mean they shouldn't be made...
why make others pay for one persons preference or stupidity?

I see no reason to exert control.

I see it more as a lost marketing opportunity, especially for mass market instruments.

1. Make the design, materials spec and QC changes to assure that your instruments balance well.

2. Use your marketing/advertising to inform players about how proper balance and position can improve their playing and help prevent injuries. Use this to sell your line of instruments.

This becomes a win/win for the manufacturer and the player.

Peace,
S

 

[humpy thumb]

One man's neck dive is another man's perfectly balanced bass.

 

[Happynoj]

It really depends what you are classing as 'neck dive'. For me, neck dive is when the headstock hits the floor if you don't catch the instrument. However I've noticed that a lot of people complain about neck dive when the instrument naturally wants it's neck to be parallel to the floor. I play with the neck parallel to the floor anyway, so what most people seem to call 'neck dive' is not a problem for me, and is not something that I would call neck dive because the bass balances where I would naturally play.

As for instruments that want to hit the floor, I used to have an SG (guitar, not bass). The tone and looks were enough to me that the neck dive didn't bother me. I didn't notice it when I was playing, and as long as I didn't let go of the neck randomly it didn't matter. If they changed the body shape so that it didn't dive, it wouldn't be the same instrument.

You might call it a flaw, but there are many things in life that we love in spite of their flaws - women, for example.

 

[JimmyM]

never met a musician who got injured because of neck dive so the likelihood of a lawsuit holding up is nil. besides, i have a real problem with people suing over doing things they know aren't good for them but continue anyway.

but yes, it's a design flaw. meanwhile, the thunderbird continues to be gibson's only bass that sells in high numbers, so apparently some people consider it worth it to put up with some neck dive.

 

[powerbass]

To me neck dive is a serious issue and can lead to nasty neck, shoulder and arm pain and/or injury. As for a design flaw it depends. I don't think ergonomics plays any role in most instrument production - maybe some custom builders focus on ergonomics. I started playing bass on a Fender Jazz and hated the neck dive. I decided to make my own bass and focus on better ergonomics and balance. I made a bass w/a compact headstock, 2 on a side, lightweight Hipshot tuners, the upper horn goes a little bit beyond the 12th fret. I used a light weight body wood and the design puts more weight in the lower corner of the bottom bout. Balances nicely and plays well too

 

[darkstorm]

Imagines the laim brain who gets smacked in the foot by basses headstock as it neck dives just so, and cause he's wearing it at just the right height. Wham!!! Ouch as he bends over and bonks his head on instruments body. Kerplowwww! LMAO

Worst incident I had with neck dive was foolishly bending over with thunderbird and headstock smacking the floor.Which knocked a small wood chip off headstock lower front curve. Glued it back on and never again was so careless when had thunderbird on. Lol.

 

[fullrangebass]

IMHO the neck-dive is a design flaw. Looks (esthetics) are in the LAST position of my "priorities" list

1 - Playability
2 - Tone
3 - Ergonomics
4 - Looks

IME, neck-dive inhibits playability (unless it suits the "horizontal" playing style), induces fatigue (with the tone suffering from improper playing position and fatigue), no ergonomics in place, while looks (horizontal or downward pointing bass) or stubbornness (over "I insist that I have no problem with neck-diving" or "I don't care if there is neck dive") will help improve nothing over tone, playability and overall comfort

 

[lomo]

yes

 

[scotch]

I wonder if it's simply a case of not enough players caring about neck-dive for manufacturers to respond.

Again, if neck-dive is an issue for an individual player, aren't there plenty of choices available with balanced weight? It seems like there are plenty of options for everybody these days. Just because something doesn't work for a minority of players doesn't mean it's "flawed", does it? (Try not resorting to far-reaching analogies, please!)

 

[scotch]

IMHO the neck-dive is a design flaw. Looks (esthetics) are in the LAST position of my "priorities" list

1 - Playability
2 - Tone
3 - Ergonomics
4 - Looks

IME, neck-dive inhibits playability (unless it suits the "horizontal" playing style), induces fatigue (with the tone suffering from improper playing position and fatigue), no ergonomics in place, while looks (horizontal or downward pointing bass) or stubbornness (over "I insist that I have no problem with neck-diving" or "I don't care if there is neck dive") will help improve nothing over tone, playability and overall comfort

I don't think I'm "stubborn" for accepting one of my basses 'neck-dive'. It's just really not an issue for me. I promise! Again, maybe if I were playing a 6 hour marathon show- but as that hasn't happened yet in almost 20 years as a player, I think I'll be allright.

Additionally, instruments with bad playability can even have great tone. Really! Take more effort to play? Sure. But I'd rather have a great sounding instrument that plays poorly than the other way around.

 

[ProfGumby]

I wonder if it's simply a case of not enough players caring about neck-dive for manufacturers to respond.

It may be more of a case that most bass owners don't know what they are doing, never play and do not know what neck dive is. Manufacturers rush to put out product that sells. The majority of bass guitars sold do just like their, 6 string, moron toting counterparts...bought to impress chicks, they sit in a stand, under a bed or in a closet for most of their lives. Or they are trashed, thrown around, used as a baseball bat by a kid who has no respect for an instrument etc...very few guitars and basses are actually ever really played.

A bass is not like a hammer in that most people who buy them will actually use them as intended for any extent of time.

Until that happens....wide strap or make another choice is all the masses have available for a diver. And yes I think neck dive is a design flaw. But, potentially a largely unknown, livable one. If comfort and ergonomics was a primary concern in the world, we all would have proper form, torsal twist, fanned fret basses and the like. Then what would we have to talk about on Talk Bass?

 

[smcd]

Neck dive can cause injuries.

Really?? What kind of injuries??

 

[smcd]

Neck dive isn't a "design flaw". It's an after effect of design aesthetics. Some people don't care about neck dive (I am one). They'd rather have a nice/interesting looking instrument and consider neck dive an mild imperfection that can be dealt with.

I've never understood how people get so bent out of shape about things like neck dive, nut width, weight, etc. When did bass players become such a group of fussy prima donnas?

 

[Ed Goode]

A well designed/made bass should balance perfectly.


Why even play a bass that has neck dive issues?

I agree 100% with this .... however, many bass players have less than desirable technique and wouldn't recognize the balance issues that a more proficient player does. To many, cosmetic factors override practicality, so in that case there is NO flaw.

Also, balance is an individual preference. What I consider to be a perfectly balanced bass might not be to the liking of another player. Different strokes, and all of that ....

 

[Bryan R. Tyler]

I've never understood how people get so bent out of shape about things like neck dive, nut width, weight, etc. When did bass players become such a group of fussy prima donnas?

Yeah, because people should play things that are uncomfortable for them for hours at a time because....you say so? Awesome idea

 

[KJung]

A well designed/made bass should balance perfectly.


Why even play a bass that has neck dive issues?

I agree here, which kind of makes the whole issue a moot point. If neck dive bothers you (it sure bothers me), don't buy or play a bass with neck dive. It is a relatively rare thing (Alembics, some Warwicks, the old Ken Smith design, etc.), and IMO a relative non-issue, since there are hundreds if not thousands of 'non dive' options out there.

 

[scotch]

Yeah, because people should play things that are uncomfortable for them for hours at a time because....you say so? Awesome idea

Agreed! People shouldn't play an instrument that is uncomfortable for them!

I don't think smcd is suggesting people must play an uncomfortable instrument "for hours at a time". Again, there are plenty of choices for everybody.