Isn't neck dive simply a builders flaw?

[baba]

Yes, neck dive is a design flaw. A balanced instrument should be a fundamental goal in design.

 

[scotch]

I agree here, which kind of makes the whole issue a moot point. If neck dive bothers you (it sure bothers me), don't buy or play a bass with neck dive. It is a relatively rare thing (Alembics, some Warwicks, the old Ken Smith design, etc.), and IMO a relative non-issue, since there are hundreds if not thousands of 'non dive' options out there.

EXACTLY!

 

[silvertones]

My Carvin BB75 is perfectly balanced and a thrill to play.

 

[BuffaloBass]

I think its assumed as a design flaw. THe only basses ( like T birds) that I've tried which have exhibited extreme neck dive are all about looks over ergonomics.

 

[bassmonkeee]

Yes, neck dive is a design flaw. A balanced instrument should be a fundamental goal in design.

No, it shouldn't. It depends on what your goal with the instrument actually is.

If it's something you require, it should be a fundamental goal in BUYING.

 

[spade2you]

Really?? What kind of injuries??

Tendinitis, carpal tunnel, stuff like that. I know the Thumbs and T-Bird I tried really hurt my left hand a lot. Perhaps since I have a job where typing on a computer is required that I might be a little more at risk, but I think the type of player who plays for several hours on end will usually choose something a little more comfortable.

 

[Ric5]

TB'rs have a standard definition for neck dive?

Neck dive while standing with a strap attached? Because, if you're talking about sitting with a Fender Jazz,
it WILL neck dive if held several different ways in your lap-without a strap.

For me neck dive is when You are standing and you have a bass strapped on and you let go with both hands and the neck dives. An unbalanced instrument.

 

[fullrangebass]

Additionally, instruments with bad playability can even have great tone. Really! Take more effort to play? Sure. But I'd rather have a great sounding instrument that plays poorly than the other way around.

If an instrument needs more effort to be played (physical effort, not more hours of playing) and gives a good tone, then I will not really play it in the long run. I prefer to have GREAT playability and comfort first (I've had my share of 4-6hrs of gigs), GREAT tone and then Looks. Neck dive IMHO and IME does not allow me to achieve the playability and comfort, to start with. Great tone is a fundamental requirement, too. But I deserve both playability and tone, and thank God I can afford both in all of the instruments I own (various degrees of both, but both requirements are from good to best).

I've sold basses that had great tone, because they were either very heavy, or uncomfortable to play (eg neck dive). Still, I have the same tones in much more playable instruments.

 

[eyvindwa]

Funny, I just saw this on the front page of TB: Link Removed

 

[i_got_a_mohawk]

A well designed/made bass should balance perfectly.


Why even play a bass that has neck dive issues?

Aesthetics.

Most cases of neck dive are easily sorted one way or another. Law suits? Seriously? Thats a bit far gone . . .

 

[scotch]

If an instrument needs more effort to be played (physical effort, not more hours of playing) and gives a good tone, then I will not really play it in the long run. I prefer to have GREAT playability and comfort first (I've had my share of 4-6hrs of gigs), GREAT tone and then Looks. Neck dive IMHO and IME does not allow me to achieve the playability and comfort, to start with. Great tone is a fundamental requirement, too. But I deserve both playability and tone, and thank God I can afford both in all of the instruments I own (various degrees of both, but both requirements are from good to best).

I've sold basses that had great tone, because they were either very heavy, or uncomfortable to play (eg neck dive). Still, I have the same tones in much more playable instruments.

And that's great!

But it's ok if someone else puts tone 1st & ergonomics 2nd right? The market's big enough for both camps, isn't it?

 

[smcd]

Yeah, because people should play things that are uncomfortable for them for hours at a time because....you say so? Awesome idea

Is that what I said??

 

[FunkMetalBass]

Neck Dive is a serious design flaw, and I will blame Gibson for it. The Thunderbird has been around for a long time, and has had serious neck dive from the start. If they add an extra half inch of wood to the butt of the bass and change the headstock to a 2x2 instead of a ridiculously long 4 in-line, there would be absolutely no neck dive on that bass.

Gibson made it acceptable. Other builders stopped caring because, "if Gibson doesn't care, why should we?"

 

[spade2you]

Gibson made it acceptable. Other builders stopped caring because, "if Gibson doesn't care, why should we?"

Even though I'm not a fan of Gibson, I don't blame them. With form/technique and theory taking a back seat in most pop music for the last couple of decades, it's the musicians (and I use the term loosely) that have deemed it acceptable.

 

[scotch]

Even though I'm not a fan of Gibson, I don't blame them. With form/technique and theory taking a back seat in most pop music for the last couple of decades, it's the musicians (and I use the term loosely) that have deemed it acceptable.

Let's just say "it's the consumers that have deemed it acceptable". Which pretty much explains it all, doesn't it?

 

[jimmyjames77]

Really? I suppose it's possible,... but really? Maybe I've never played a bass with such drastic neck dive.

I was hoping he just forgot to use the "sarcastic" font when he wrote that. lol

 

[Kingkananga]

Isn't complaining about neck dive, all the time, a bassists flaw?

don't like neck dive - play a bass without it

not bothered by neck dive - play any bass you like the sound of

 

[spade2you]

Let's just say "it's the consumers that have deemed it acceptable". Which pretty much explains it all, doesn't it?

I can agree with that.

 

[Fawkes007]

Neck dive is unacceptable to me. I won't buy a Fender bass because of the neck dive (so I went with a Mike Lull and couldn't be happier). Even the Sadowsky Metros I've tried had neck dive - that's pretty bad for a $2k instrument. Bottom line, if it neck dives while seated, then I won't even plug the damn thing in. With Fenders, the issue is tamed somewhat by replacing the big tuning keys with ultra lites, but then you're spending more money, taking the damn thing to the shop, waiting for the luthier to get around to your order, and then you have new holes in your headstock. What the hell. I know the newer ones have much better balance then the old ones - again, lighter tuning keys are the key.

So, yes, it is a design flaw. But I won't blame Leo - he was working with what was available at the time. By the time he went to Music Man, he had pretty much eliminated neck dive from the StingRays (all three StingRay's I've owned had no neck dive at all).

 

[JAUQO III-X]

that's a bit too far.

No it's not.

if i decide to use a product that harms me personally, i should try to make a law that limits artistic design?

everyone is different, instruments that might be perfect for someone else might be physically straining for me.
doesn't mean they shouldn't be made...
why make others pay for one persons preference or stupidity?

We live in a society where the scenario I described can very well happen. And possible put a luthier out of business.

never met a musician who got injured because of neck dive so the likelihood of a lawsuit holding up is nil.

You never know.

besides, i have a real problem with people suing over doing things they know aren't good for them but continue anyway.

It happens all the time and many win in court.