I certainly agree - but I was just stressing that without the basics, it doesn't matter how good you think your "chops" are...?
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Jazz Audition reject
- Thread starter jacohead
- Start date
I certainly agree - but I was just stressing that without the basics, it doesn't matter how good you think your "chops" are...?
In my view, what seems like snobbery is really something else. In any competitive field where there is freelance work to be done, it will tend to concentrate itself in the hands of a small circle of workers who are probably overqualified for most of the work that they do. The most highly skilled workers, acting out of purely rational self interest, will persuade employers that their skills are vital.
Employers who need advanced skills for only 5% of their jobs, will nonetheless hire the same workers for the other 95%, unless those workers are unavailable. This is both a matter of convenience, and simply the enjoyment of working with the top people.
On the other hand, when there is a shortage of workers, then a field will open up. I was lucky to break into the jazz scene when there happened to be a temporary shortage of bassists in my locale. Then I used the opportunity that I had been given, to fill in the gaps in my skill set, particularly by developing my soloing on low-profile gigs. Now that I possess that skill, why would I ever tell a bandleader, or the public, that it's unnecessary? At the same time, I know that whenever the music scene slows down and gigs start getting scarce, there are guys who will get the calls before I do.
This is pure capitalism, folks. It means that "good enough" isn't always good enough.
I wouldn't subscribe to the snobbery thing either.
I do know the challenge of breaking into their circle, which in my region, is difficult to impossible, but I wouldn't call it snobbery. Those guys are just very tight knit and all the gigs are done by - pretty much, all the same people. But, the jazz players I have hung out with are definitely the coolest players in the region. Usually alot more interesting to hang out with than the typical drunken and sloppy bar banders.
I do know the challenge of breaking into their circle, which in my region, is difficult to impossible, but I wouldn't call it snobbery. Those guys are just very tight knit and all the gigs are done by - pretty much, all the same people. But, the jazz players I have hung out with are definitely the coolest players in the region. Usually alot more interesting to hang out with than the typical drunken and sloppy bar banders.
Is it "snobby" for a jazz band looking for a bassist to favor someone who they can drop a chart in front of and count off the tune over someone that they in effect, have to teach what and how to play?
Part of the beauty and draw of jazz combo gigging is the ability to make money without investing too much time. Think about how time original bands invest in their music. They have to write and arrange the music, learn the songs, practice them 2-3 a week, and record a demo before they can even start soliciting showcase gigs and pay-to-play gigs. That can easily amount to years. With jazz, you can easily take a handful of competent jazz musicians who have never even met before (in fact, they don't even need to speak the same language!) and knock off a 4 hour gig RIGHT NOW without even breaking a sweat by playing the songs from memory or instantly interpreting them from fake charts.
This only works with competent jazz musicians. A speed metal drummer who can play double bass octuplets at 200 bpm but can't swing or play a bossa won't do. A classically trained piano prodigy who blanks without notation won't be able to comp. A bassist who needs pre-count off humming won't be able cut the gig. It may sound snobbish, but time is money.
Not so much a snob thing as a necessity thing. Aside from having lots of tunes memorized, I can't think of a jazz gig where being able to read (at least chord charts) wasn't a vital part of the gig. On top of that a solid knowledge of theory plays an important role because one has to sightread some tough changes, and that involves knowing the fretboard very well. That's just how the gig works, like it or not.
Simply put, if a bassist is unwilling to put the time and effort in to learn these thing well, he/she should not expect to see very many jazz gigs in their future until they do. In the meantime there is alot of great music out there to play that doesn't require these things. Sounds very harsh I know, but its reality. A carpenter must cut straight. An accountant must be good at math. An NBA player must be able to shoot well (unless you're Shaq of course). A jazz bassist must have certain tools in his/her bag to play the gig.
Simply put, if a bassist is unwilling to put the time and effort in to learn these thing well, he/she should not expect to see very many jazz gigs in their future until they do. In the meantime there is alot of great music out there to play that doesn't require these things. Sounds very harsh I know, but its reality. A carpenter must cut straight. An accountant must be good at math. An NBA player must be able to shoot well (unless you're Shaq of course). A jazz bassist must have certain tools in his/her bag to play the gig.
My sight reading isn't the best and probably nowhere near where I'd want it to be. I play in a jazz trio on weekends and the guys are pretty cool about the fact that I'm quite young (about 18 years younger to be precise), not very experienced and don't have the same reading skills as they do, I guess its just luck on my part 
- Nov 9, 2009
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- Endorsing Artist: Reunion Blues, 64 Audio, Mesa Engineering, Ernie Ball.
Yeah man, I don't doubt that you're good, but you need to be able to read in a jazz band setting. It's as simple as that. They give you charts to be read. It wouldn't be practical for them to have you in without that ability.
Let me add that even though I play regular jazz gigs and take lots of solos, I would get kicked out if a band that plays red hot chili peppers covers because I'm just now taking the time to learn slap playing. I suck at it and don't have anything close to the skills to do the things that flea does. My point being, jazz players don't necessarily think they are gods on their instrument. We all have weaknesses and strengths and should strive to improve where we lack.
This thread shows good character and promise to the original poster because he/she sees that they are possibly missing something in their playing and they are willing to confront the issue and tackle it. More power to you! Keep asking questions.
This thread shows good character and promise to the original poster because he/she sees that they are possibly missing something in their playing and they are willing to confront the issue and tackle it. More power to you! Keep asking questions.
The funny thing is that when you play Jazz, you are hanging out with sax players, trumpeters etc. and they just take it for granted that any musician would have all these skills and they never thought that they would be able to play any type of music on their instrument without them...
It is only guitarists/bass guitarists who have these strange notions ....
I don't understand why you would need to be able to read in order to be in a jazz band. 99% of the time the chords names are written above the staff, so if you see A7 and know how to play it on your bass, what's preventing you from playing a fitting bassline ?
Well - the answer is there in the first post in the part I quoted above!
Also - there is the question of knowing which notes go to make up an A7 chord - so you don't play G# which is in A Major but not an A7 chord ...
or that a half-diminished chord has a flat 5, for example..?Well it's easy to learn shapes that help you see the basic notes that can fit the chord, for an A7 chord you can use the A myxolydian mode as a basis, then if you are a more advanced player you can add outside notes to your taste. I think it's very helpful to know theory when you're playing jazz, but you don't need to be able to read music to learn it. Knowing where the notes are on the fretboard, on the other hand, is crucial.
I think that knowing how to read a chart is essential - so if somebody drops a sheet of paper with a chart for a new tune in front of you - then you have to know what to play now - not in a few rehearsals - otherwise you are wasting everybody else's time!
"Jazz" is a pretty broad term, and to say that you don't need to be able to read music to play in a jazz band is far, far too much of a generalization. You absolutely need to be able to read music to play in my band, for example. And when I say "able to read music," I mean able to sight-read reasonably accurately the first time through a chart you've never seen before.
Of course everyone has his own definition of jazz.
A jazz tune is made of chord changes and a melody or head.
You don't need to read the notes to comp or improvise on changes, you can just read the chord symbols (you of course have to know what to do with them but that's another topic).
The head can be learned by ear and memorized. Bass players won't have to play if most of the time, they may have to play some riffs or motifs that are part of the tune's identity (So what, Night in Tunisia), but again these are easily memorized.
Now if you play bass in a jazz band where some one else writes the part that you have to play, that's another story. But if that's the case then it's not really jazz anymore in my book. Jazz is every musician doing their own thing, improvising within the context of a tune (among other things).
A jazz tune is made of chord changes and a melody or head.
You don't need to read the notes to comp or improvise on changes, you can just read the chord symbols (you of course have to know what to do with them but that's another topic).
The head can be learned by ear and memorized. Bass players won't have to play if most of the time, they may have to play some riffs or motifs that are part of the tune's identity (So what, Night in Tunisia), but again these are easily memorized.
Now if you play bass in a jazz band where some one else writes the part that you have to play, that's another story. But if that's the case then it's not really jazz anymore in my book. Jazz is every musician doing their own thing, improvising within the context of a tune (among other things).
- May 30, 2000
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Typically big band charts don't have chord symbols, the line is written out in standard notation so you need to be able to read especially if you show up to a big band gig as a sub. Being able to read makes available a lot more opportunities to play as does being able to play both BG and DB. I just got finished doing an original opera, something that I would not have been able to do or expreience if I didn't know how to read.
