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Jeff Berlin Discussing Music Ed Part II

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#521
chadhargis said:
Jeff, I went back and read your cooking analogy again, and it sums up where I am as a player.

I can cook, because I know what the ingredients taste like. I know what chicken, beef, pork, garlic, salt, pepper, etc...all taste like. So I can combine ingredients to make the taste I'm after.

Music is the same, only it's notes, rhythm, and harmony. This is my biggest stumbling block. While I've listened to music my entire life, and it's "in me", I don't know how to make the instrument make the sounds I want. That's where learning the basics come in.

Dang, now I'm hungry for a grouper sandwich.....
Click to expand...

Most people reading this aren't trained in music. This is why some play the Blues. They can't play anything else.

I want a change, an upgrade, so that if one chooses the Blues, or rock, it is because they have multiple choices and can choose what they want from a buffet of opportunities. Blues players can't do this. In fact, they are unable to even consider other musical styles since these styles are out of their ability to play with legitimacy. Whatever style one chooses to play, one ought to have some knowledge and ability to allow other opportunities into their musical lives. How many times can one play a Blues in E before getting just a little bit tired of the experience.

The only players who may protest this statement are the guys that are represented by this comment. Sometimes it is so easy to find out who falls into the categories that I speak of. They are the ones who protest immediately. My suggestion is to not be offended. Just improve on your instrument in musical ways and stop being limited to the simplest, most tonaly non-eventful musical style in music, if this is your wish.
 
#522
Wow...good thread....no sooner than I get something typed, there is a response. FANTASTIC.

So, Jeff...what you're saying to me is to NOT listen to the note, but to simply memorize where they are on the fretboard?

As a newbie, with VERY little musical knowledge (never played anything but the radio), I am thirsty for any bits of knowledge I can get. I tend to get overwhelmed when it comes to learning music. I want to learn, but knowing where to start and what to focus on is the hard part.

It's sort of like shooting a machine gun vs. a sniper rifle. I'd rather take one shot and hit my target, than shoot hundreds of rounds and finally get lucky.
 
#524
That makes me remember something I thought of when considering players who have only learned by ear and don't know theory...like say a Bruce Springsteen or someone. In those cases, you're only as good as what you've heard before, whereas learning theory lets you expand your horizons a bit. In fact, I remember reading that when Springteen did "Born To Run", he got extremely frustrated because he was aiming for something higher and his limitations wouldn't let him express it.
 
#525
JeffBerlin said:
Most people reading this aren't trained in music. This is why some play the Blues. They can't play anything else.

I want a change, an upgrade, so that if one chooses the Blues, or rock, it is because they have multiple choices and can choose what they want from a buffet of opportunities. Blues players can't do this. In fact, they are unable to even consider other musical styles since these styles are out of their ability to play with legitimacy. Whatever style one chooses to play, one ought to have some knowledge and ability to allow other opportunities into their musical lives. How many times can one play a Blues in E before getting just a little bit tired of the experience.

The only players who may protest this statement are the guys that are represented by this comment. Sometimes it is so easy to find out who falls into the categories that I speak of. They are the ones who protest immediately. My suggestion is to not be offended. Just improve on your instrument in musical ways and stop being limited to the simplest, most tonaly non-eventful musical style in music, if this is your wish.
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Sheeze Jeff, you make it sound like blues players can't play! (I know some that don't play well, but we've all seen great ones too! And yes I'll admit right now I've played in my share of blues bands -- learned how to play in fact back in high school listening to Tommy Shannon over and over until I could play everything he did. He's still a favorite of mine btw!)
 
#526
I want a change, an upgrade, so that if one chooses the Blues, or rock, it is because they have multiple choices and can choose what they want from a buffet of opportunities
Click to expand...

I feel the same way. I listen to a variety of music. Everything from bluegrass to classical. Depending on what mood I'm in, I might want to play a Rush song one day, and a Nat King Cole song the next.

That is the one caveat I had for my bass teacher. Don't teach me to play songs, teach me to play music. I don't want to be a human bass line jukebox. I want to have an idea in my head, and play it.

To me, learning to play is a lifelong journey. I don't expect to join a band and start gigging next week. I know it's going to take a lot of practice and study to get to where I feel I am good enough to play in a band. My ultimate goal is a humble one. I simply want to be able to sit in my basement, fire up iTunes and play. I want to be able to play music with my brother. I want to be able to play in the band at church. Being a rock star isn't one of my goals. I just want to play, and enjoy it. As much as I enjoy practicing, actually playing something is going to be awesome.
 
#527
chadhargis said:
Wow...good thread....no sooner than I get something typed, there is a response. FANTASTIC.

So, Jeff...what you're saying to me is to NOT listen to the note, but to simply memorize where they are on the fretboard?

As a newbie, with VERY little musical knowledge (never played anything but the radio), I am thirsty for any bits of knowledge I can get. I tend to get overwhelmed when it comes to learning music. I want to learn, but knowing where to start and what to focus on is the hard part.

It's sort of like shooting a machine gun vs. a sniper rifle. I'd rather take one shot and hit my target, than shoot hundreds of rounds and finally get lucky.
Click to expand...

No! Don't memorize anything on the fretboard! In fact, don't memorize anything! Ever! But, review and practice regularly. Memorization of music is automatic. There is no need to memorize anything as a deliberate effort. Just do the work, repeatedly, in peace, relaxed, over and over, take a break, then go back and repeat the whole thing again, relaxed, peacefully.

Then move on to new music and do the same thing.

BUT...

You need a good teacher to help you because I suspect that you are not qualified to make the decision about what you need to learn. Find a teacher who ONLY TEACHES MUSIC, PREFERABLY JAZZ. Never take a teacher who offers anything with the words "chops", "licks", "technique", "warm-ups" or anything else that doesn't have Music itself as the center of your lessons.
 
#528
I have a teacher. He is very young, but seems to know music quite well. We discuss theory during every lesson. He always tells me the theory behind what he tells me to work on.

He told me not to memorize the fretboard, but to listen to the notes. That's where I got confused is when you said:

Don't listent to the notes, that is, don't do anything extra except learn them.
Click to expand...

It's really hard on an internet forum to get clarification on something. I misinterpreted that to mean just learn (memorize) them.

My teacher has a music degree and plays multiple instruments (guitar, bass, drums, and piano). He is a big theory guy. The only gotcha you warned me about that he is big on is technique. He wants me to hold my hand a specific way, and hold the bass a specific way. He and I disagree on the thumb position for the plucking hand. He is an "anchor it to the pickup" guy, and I prefer the "floating thumb" technique. To me, floating the thumb feels better and more natural. He conceded that I should do what I like better, but he recommends me anchoring my thumb. That's as much "technique" as we've discussed. Most of it having to do with developing good habits which will help me down the road.
 
#530
JeffBerlin said:
Most people reading this aren't trained in music. This is why some play the Blues. They can't play anything else.

I want a change, an upgrade, so that if one chooses the Blues, or rock, it is because they have multiple choices and can choose what they want from a buffet of opportunities. Blues players can't do this. In fact, they are unable to even consider other musical styles since these styles are out of their ability to play with legitimacy. Whatever style one chooses to play, one ought to have some knowledge and ability to allow other opportunities into their musical lives. How many times can one play a Blues in E before getting just a little bit tired of the experience.

The only players who may protest this statement are the guys that are represented by this comment. Sometimes it is so easy to find out who falls into the categories that I speak of. They are the ones who protest immediately. My suggestion is to not be offended. Just improve on your instrument in musical ways and stop being limited to the simplest, most tonaly non-eventful musical style in music, if this is your wish.
Click to expand...

I'll agree, as a genre the blues has been very kind to me. But a majority barely get buy, tune to Eb because Stevie Ray did, then can't find the key when some calls a blues in E. How many blues players can actually negotiate the three chords? Very few, it's pentatonic all night, yet if they have a horn player, that guys playing through the changes come solo time. It's a genre where knowing the most obscure blues guy and his record catologue numbers gives you street cred. It's nice to be in a band where slow blues time might actually be 'Round Midnight.
 
#531
stretchcat said:
Jeff,

What is your philosophy on writing/composing tunes? Do you feel that once a student gets a handle on playing/reading tunes and has a basic understanding of harmony that they should be encouraged work on writing their own?

Does the Players School offer any concentration on composition?

Thanks,
Ben
Click to expand...

I rally have no philosophy about writing music. I just write. But, from a pragmatic point of view, one can make WAY more money by writing, publishing and having one's song played than they ever can by playing. Case in point: Dolly Parton wrote a tune (can't remember the name) that Whitney Houston covered and made millions from this song. The chord changes are I VI IV V, just like that little piano tune Heart & Soul that every kid in America can play on the white keys.

As of this moment, we have no composition classes because I feel that playing is so much more important to receive lessons to improve in.
 
#532
chadhargis said:
I have a teacher. He is very young, but seems to know music quite well. We discuss theory during every lesson. He always tells me the theory behind what he tells me to work on.

He told me not to memorize the fretboard, but to listen to the notes. That's where I got confused is when you said:



It's really hard on an internet forum to get clarification on something. I misinterpreted that to mean just learn (memorize) them.

My teacher has a music degree and plays multiple instruments (guitar, bass, drums, and piano). He is a big theory guy. The only gotcha you warned me about that he is big on is technique. He wants me to hold my hand a specific way, and hold the bass a specific way. He and I disagree on the thumb position for the plucking hand. He is an "anchor it to the pickup" guy, and I prefer the "floating thumb" technique. To me, floating the thumb feels better and more natural. He conceded that I should do what I like better, but he recommends me anchoring my thumb. That's as much "technique" as we've discussed. Most of it having to do with developing good habits which will help me down the road.
Click to expand...

A little attention to how one plays their instrument is mandatory. But, some teachers put chops and the development of these chops as the priority or equal to the music. They aren't. Django Reinhard had only two useful fingers on his left hand due to an accident. Yet he found a way to play the music that clearly was his inspiration to play, as it always should be. Technique is a temporary point of regard. Most bassist hold their bass necks as if they are stepping up to the plate. Bad way to play. A more effective way is to put the thumb behind the neck and curve your fingers into a letter C and play that way. But this can feel wierd if you aren't used to it. My suggestion is to play this way for two weeks. That is all that is required to switch over to a more elegant and musically effective way to play notes on the bass neck.

Regarding your plucking hand, just play softer. You don't play with more feeling or get a better sound when one plucks the strings really hard.
 
#533
The Dolly Parton song was, "I will always love you". Dolly made a fair bit of money off of that song too, but Whitney raked it in.

Dolly is a nice lady. My brother played in a band with her nephew and they used to rehearse at her house. They took a break and went out to the pool to take a swim. Dolly was coming up out of the water in a t-shirt that was clinging to her (you get the picture). She says to them, "What are you looking at?". My brother replies, "Both of 'em!". LOL! True story guys, you can't make this stuff up. :)

The band also played a show once and put on her wigs when they did a cover of one of her songs.

Jeff, the "play softer" thing is great advice. I quickly learned that by turning the amp up, and playing softer I got a better tone. A MUCH better tone. I was amazed at what a difference it made.
 
#534
chadhargis said:
I



He wants me to hold my hand a specific way, and hold the bass a specific way. He and I disagree on the thumb position for the plucking hand. He is an "anchor it to the pickup" guy, and I prefer the "floating thumb" technique. To me, floating the thumb feels better and more natural. He conceded that I should do what I like better, but he recommends me anchoring my thumb.
Click to expand...

To add my $.02, what really counts with the right (and left hand) is that your hand isn't tense. If your right hand is totally relaxed with a floating thumb, than more power to ya, you just want to be sure your hand is in the usual "c" shape while playing, as it is when you are not playing. If you learn to play with tension in your hands, this is a 1 way trip to carpal tunnel syndrome, or tendinitis.
100% agreement with Jeff's advice about left hand thumb placement. This is how DB players are taught to hold the neck, which is critical since the high string tension of the DB is even more likely to product carpal tunnel if you learn an improper grip that stresses the hand, or causes tension.
 
#537
A working pro musician.....me? BAAAHAAA! You're killing me!

Unless singing in a church choir for free qualifies me as a professional musician, then I'm afraid I am, and always will be, a hobbyist hack. :crying:

I have been compensated to run sound before, if beer qualifies as compensation.

I love music and being around music. Most of the time, I'm PAYING for the pleasure. Never once been paid, never once asked for payment. I'm just happy to be around it and be apart of things.
 
#538
chadhargis said:
A working pro musician.....me? BAAAHAAA! You're killing me!

Unless singing in a church choir for free qualifies me as a professional musician, then I'm afraid I am, and always will be, a hobbyist hack. :crying:

I have been compensated to run sound before, if beer qualifies as compensation.

I love music and being around music. Most of the time, I'm PAYING for the pleasure. Never once been paid, never once asked for payment. I'm just happy to be around it and be apart of things.
Click to expand...

I prefer "recreational player" to "hobbyist hack" personally. :D
 
#539
I've not reached the level or recreational player yet, as I can't really "play" anything. I can shag the hell out of some scales and some exercises though.

I hope to one day ascend to the level of player.
 
#540
chadhargis said:
I've not reached the level or recreational player yet, as I can't really "play" anything. I can shag the hell out of some scales and some exercises though.

I hope to one day ascend to the level of player.
Click to expand...

Well, the first thing I'd suggest then is do what Jeff Berlin says -- 'cause I'm pretty sure he knows a thing or two about the bass! ;) Since you're singing in a church, if you're interested in that venue you may also want to check out some of Todd Johnson's stuff. I've liked what I've seen of his materials and I recall him saying something specific about being interested in helping church bassists become better players.
 
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