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Jeff Berlin Discussing Music Ed Part II

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#781
Billnc said:
No, not at all. My present drummer has a masters degree in music! I've had the opportunity to study with Mick Goodrick, Pat Martino and students of Sandole, and play with Sonny Boy Wiiliamsons bandmates, also Ronnie Earl (not a gig but I played with him at a club all night) and others.

I did not play in a blues band again for many years. A guy showed up with a blues band in town, he played for real, negotiated all the changes, played in all keys and drifted off to other styles of music to include jazz ,all related to the American Songbook. I asked to join his band!

Most music, played for a living is simple, training for music means you can come to a rehearsal or 3 and play an evenings worth of music at the gig. I've played many styles of music. Even the limited pit work was three rehearsals, a dress rehersal and the gigs. It should not take 6 months in a garage to do a nights worth of work.

The academic journey and the musical journey are different, both have been kind to me. I'm no genius player or student, but what a ride!

Oh, your fretless comments never offended me either! Just a sound I enjoy, and I fully understand what you mean by 'fretless lessons' etc.
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I appreciate your comments. I actually knew what you were going to say. I just wanted to show other guys who read this that when speaking in generalities, being offended happens only to those who look for it, or is intimate with personal offenses in their lives. Nothing that I said was personal, never a single name was named to point out anybody's lack of ability or communication skills. Furhter, almost nobody else took it to heart, but rather read exactly what I said and understood what I meant by it. Thanks Bill.
 
#783
chadhargis - I'm open to any suggestions.

JEFF - OK! Here I go!!!!!!!!!!
No metronomes whatsoever. Just count the rhythms if the rhythms are subdivided into eighth notes and quarter notes with the eighth notes coming in on the "and" (1 AND 2 AND 3 AND 4 AND). Your teacher is right when he tries to stop you from rushing. But because you are the source of your time, then you need to be the one to understand what is happening when you rush. What is happening is that you are trying to perform rather than learn your music. Counting is THE best methods to slow down and put the correct count onto the notes. It is hard to explain this any better via the internet, but show this to your teacher and ask him to teach you how to subdivide and count, even if it only happens for a couple of weeks. Rhythms are learned one way and performance of those rhythms comes later, not earlier. I, for one, have never cared if a student rushes or drags. I simply point it out and have them try to count, to feel the time, which is a much more permanent manner to internalize good time. Let me know what he says about this.

chadhargis -This might be fine for 5yo girls, but you're right...it's way to "fluffy" for adults. If you aren't able to accept constructive criticism not laden with flowery "feel goodness", then you really have no business taking on something as challenging as learning music and playing an instrument.

JEFF - Exactly! One doesn't have to be cruel or in your face to show something to a student. But, one ought to be open to the truth told to them in a matter of fact manner, but meant only to enlighten and motivate one to a higher place in music. This philosophy happens all the time in a million other academic realites world wide, but only in this era of politically sensitive players do some take offense and go crazy after hearing truthful statements that either they do, or don't fall into.


chadhargis - I can say, without hesitation, that of all the things I've done in my life, music is the most difficult thing I've ever tried to learn.

JEFF - It is difficult becaus much of it makes little artful sense. It is really hard to find a place to use the academic principles that I suggest to people and so they are thrown by the idea of practicing them. But the trick is to realize that these exercises are for enlightenment only. So many have heard and subscribe to the idea the "music is in you. You just have to get it out" But what interests me is that almost nobody ever asked the next logical question of HOW to get the music out. Just knowing that it is inside me doesn't help me one bit. The exercises that you hopefully are practicing will help you to learn music and your instrument so that you will have tools to get the music out of you, not right away, but in 6 months to a year.
 
#784
JeffBerlin said:
I appreciate your comments. I actually knew what you were going to say. I just wanted to show other guys who read this that when speaking in generalities, being offended happens only to those who look for it, or is intimate with personal offenses in their lives. Nothing that I said was personal, never a single name was named to point out anybody's lack of ability or communication skills. Furhter, almost nobody else took it to heart, but rather read exactly what I said and understood what I meant by it. Thanks Bill.
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Again this was a dead issue and you raise it up, come at it from a different angle, to use a phrase of yours, validate your stance. Let it go everyone else has. The point of offence is in that the person doing it does not decide whether it is offensive, they apologise and move on. If you want to validate your point take it to Blues forums and post it there, not on a jazz thread, no offence ment.:)
 
#785
Fergie Fulton said:
Again this was a dead issue and you raise it up, come at it from a different angle, to use a phrase of yours, validate your stance. Let it go everyone else has. The point of offence is in that the person doing it does not decide whether it is offensive, they apologise and move on. If you want to validate your point take it to Blues forums and post it there, not on a jazz thread, no offence ment.:)
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Months and months of your B.S. and passive aggresive approach, and you complain because of one return to an old point from me?

Do you believe this kid? Months of badgering, bad mouthing, insulting and ticking off people here, and he complains that I returned once to a subject where he identified himself again with ease. No names, but he steps forward each and every time and identifies himself.

This is why I didn't accept your apology. I knew that your true colors would come through eventually. Go away and don't come back! You are a distraction and I don't want you here. But, as with other needy people, I know that this will not happen. And so, for the second time, and the last, I turn my back on you
 
#786
LOL for someone who does not read what i post you seem to take an interest in it. It strikes me if you believe you are so missunderstood then maybe you could try explaining things to the point. If you say you have been misquoted, mis-understood, people don't understand what you mean, and this has been going on over 20 years then one would think you would try harder to be more concise with your points and leave no doubt what you mean then no more mis-understanding etc. Just trying to help you, make life easier, or go on doing what you do and say what you say.
Strange how when your aggresive, brash, home truth manner is returned to you... you don't like it.:)
Fergie Fulton aged 50 lol;)
 
#787
I'd like to thank Mr. Berlin for taking the time to address all these things on his own personal time. I think it speaks volumes about how much music means to him. I really don't post very much but I read plenty. I've learned a ton of stuff in this thread alone.

OT but this Fergie Fulton thing is ridiculous. If you don't like what Mr. Berlin has to say than don't look in this thread. Why do you feel the need to follow him around?
 
#788
The exercises that you hopefully are practicing will help you to learn music and your instrument so that you will have tools to get the music out of you, not right away, but in 6 months to a year.
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I'm hoping this is the case. Right now, I have the "ear" to listen to a song and, hunt around on the fretboard, and quasi play the song. It won't be perfect, but it will be close. Give me a number chart, and I'm off to the races. To me, this is the musical equivalent to "paint by number". Just because you can follow a pattern doesn't make you a musician.

I have to admit, some of the things I'm doing now are fairly easy. Easy, in the sense that they are easy to execute, but more difficult to execute smoothly and accurately using techniques that don't feel "natural" to a new player. That's what I'm going after now. The fundamentals.

I will certainly see what my teachers opinion of my counting versus using a metronome (which I'll admit I hate the sound of since it's so "dead" sounding, I'd rather use a drum loop).

The last thing I want to do is get into a "he said" type thing. I have a brain, and I think I'm capable of determining what works best for me given logical explanations of similar techniques, or trying them both and seeing which one accelerates my learning faster.

I'm the type that never takes things as fact just because someone says they are. I always want proof. Proof is in the results.

Thanks for your suggestion. I'll give it a try and see which way I like better. I have a pretty good internal "clock", so I don't use a metronome much. A toe tap works well for me.
 
#789
chadhargis -I'm hoping this is the case. Right now, I have the "ear" to listen to a song and, hunt around on the fretboard, and quasi play the song. It won't be perfect, but it will be close. Give me a number chart, and I'm off to the races. To me, this is the musical equivalent to "paint by number". Just because you can follow a pattern doesn't make you a musician.

JEFF- Because you are describing performance, you should consider out-of-time academia to help you to grow in the meaningful content of music.

chadhargis -I have to admit, some of the things I'm doing now are fairly easy. Easy, in the sense that they are easy to execute, but more difficult to execute smoothly and accurately using techniques that don't feel "natural" to a new player. That's what I'm going after now. The fundamentals.

JEFF-Fundamentals always work well in one or two keys. To really get the meat of what these exercises can do, try doing them in 12 keys, with a healthy dose of chord tones thrown in.

chadhargis - ill certainly see what my teachers opinion of my counting versus using a metronome (which I'll admit I hate the sound of since it's so "dead" sounding, I'd rather use a drum loop).

JEFF - As what you mentioned above, drum loops, metronomes, or anything with a steady unmoving pulse state openly a need for performance. But learning how to play is anybody BUT performance oriented, if it is taught and studied correctly. Forget all of those devices (it is actually up to you and your teacher) and count, count, count your way through new music, stopping, starting, fixing, reviewing and counting. Remember that the counting end of academic studies shouldn't last too long.

chadhargis - last thing I want to do is get into a "he said" type thing. I have a brain, and I think I'm capable of determining what works best for me given logical explanations of similar techniques, or trying them both and seeing which one accelerates my learning faster.

JEFF - If your teacher is giving you music, preferrable trombone music right out of the gate, teaching you chord tones, and sticking to principles of perfect academic truth and perfection, then this is the guy for you.
 
#790
BobaFret said:
OT but this Fergie Fulton thing is ridiculous. If you don't like what Mr. Berlin has to say than don't look in this thread. Why do you feel the need to follow him around?
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Because i love the music content, it is second to none and i like to learn. But that may be presented as being passive/aggresive later.:)
Again i agree with Jeff about 98% of the time on music related topics and i don't start these things. And i don't react to all things this latest thing was apologised for and put to bed. But it seems that i am to be held as an example, or a scapegoat for things, so i speak out, if the upset people or this thread then i'm sorry but then don't use or come after me to make points.:)
 
#795
If your teacher is giving you music, preferrable trombone music right out of the gate, teaching you chord tones, and sticking to principles of perfect academic truth and perfection, then this is the guy for you.
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I've only had one lesson with the new teach, so we didn't get into any trombone music, but he did say something that was VERY interesting to me. He said I was going to learn the whole bass, not just the first four frets or five frets. He mentioned that notes in the upper registers are more melodic (not his exact words....so if I misstated that, my apologies to Adam). Based on his playing, he's all about making a bass do things most bass players don't do.

Here's a couple of snippets of him playing:

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#797
JeffBerlin said:
Chord tone exercises will change you and in great ways. Try to get a bunch of them, play the inversions, and do this in 12 keys. Slow's the way! Everyday for an hour or less if you don't have the time. But the trick is to work on simple, perfect, often non-complicated musical principles. Not for the gig, not for the record, not for your career but for the love of music and bass.
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Good point-I can always find 30 minutes and I have a pile of ideas to work on there. Thanks! :)
 
#799
chadhargis said:
I've only had one lesson with the new teach, so we didn't get into any trombone music, but he did say something that was VERY interesting to me. He said I was going to learn the whole bass, not just the first four frets or five frets. He mentioned that notes in the upper registers are more melodic (not his exact words....so if I misstated that, my apologies to Adam). Based on his playing, he's all about making a bass do things most bass players don't do.

Here's a couple of snippets of him playing:

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[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
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Kudos to Adam-he's a fine player and teacher and a good guy. I don't tend to deal with things from the technical end as much as he does, but when you hear some of his students like Alan Barnes and Bernard Lachner you can see the end result of those permutations. I'm sort of reminded of working with Kreutzer with different bowing permutations if you're a violinist.
 
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