Jeff's Thread. No Topic! Just Go for It. But, Be Nice!

[THand]

This forum makes me sad. So much potential, like most Berlin threads, and yet it fails to deliver anything substantial,IMO.

Jeff, I respect your talent and dedication to music. I ask this respectfully, please do not take it as a insult, but it seems your threads are pretty much: get a teacher...can't find one, come to my school. and insults.

I know some here go/plan to go/ or have attended your school, so you basically get alot of free advertisement for you school here. I, personally had not heard of it outside of TB...so you reached me anyway.

So my question is, do you intend to share anything else besides the advice of learning to read, and get a teacher? It seems someone at your level could share so much more. If you want to save lessons for your school, I understand. But I'm sure you have even more to share...

Another thing, I didn't grow up on jazz. So when you mention playing "good" music, as you frequently do, what are you referring to? "Good" can be very subjective, IMO. I am curious exactly what it is you think we should be aspiring to. I'm asking because I suspect others may be wondering the same thing. In your opinion, what is "good" music, especially for a bass player?

 

[5StringBlues]

EDIT(Mark): Unnecessary Comment.

 

[longrange]

This forum makes me sad. So much potential, like most Berlin threads, and yet it fails to deliver anything substantial,IMO.

Jeff, I respect your talent and dedication to music. I ask this respectfully, please do not take it as a insult, but it seems your threads are pretty much: get a teacher...can't find one, come to my school. and insults.

I know some here go/plan to go/ or have attended your school, so you basically get alot of free advertisement for you school here. I, personally had not heard of it outside of TB...so you reached me anyway.

So my question is, do you intend to share anything else besides the advice of learning to read, and get a teacher? It seems someone at your level could share so much more. If you want to save lessons for your school, I understand. But I'm sure you have even more to share...

Another thing, I didn't grow up on jazz. So when you mention playing "good" music, as you frequently do, what are you referring to? "Good" can be very subjective, IMO. I am curious exactly what it is you think we should be aspiring to. I'm asking because I suspect others may be wondering the same thing. In your opinion, what is "good" music, especially for a bass player?

Go read something else then.

 

[THand]

Go read something else then.

I wasn't asking you.

If your name happens to be Jeff, I apologize for confusing you.

 

[aidan784]

I don't understand what you're looking for, jeff's point in advising teachers is so you can have someone more qualified than you assess you personally and guide you in how to improve, that can't be done via this forum. Jeff does offer the general things here; reading trombone music, practice chord tones, learn songs by ear etc...

 

[Jim Campbell]

I don't understand what you're looking for, jeff's point in advising teachers is so you can have someone more qualified than you assess you personally and guide you in how to improve, that can't be done via this forum. Jeff does offer the general things here; reading trombone music, practice chord tones, learn songs by ear etc...

i don't know.....but i was about to ask if richard petty might come up to the house to show me how to park the family sedan

 

[nic salsus]

Go read something else then.

That's the same simple minded, faulty "If you don't love it, leave it" logic used against people protesting the Vietnam war....when the reason they were speaking up was precisely because they did care. THand's comment was respectful, coherent and moving toward resolution. Your comment was knee-jerk and inflammatory.

 

[JeffBerlin]

This forum makes me sad. So much potential, like most Berlin threads, and yet it fails to deliver anything substantial,IMO.

Jeff, I respect your talent and dedication to music. I ask this respectfully, please do not take it as a insult, but it seems your threads are pretty much: get a teacher...can't find one, come to my school. and insults.

I know some here go/plan to go/ or have attended your school, so you basically get alot of free advertisement for you school here. I, personally had not heard of it outside of TB...so you reached me anyway.

So my question is, do you intend to share anything else besides the advice of learning to read, and get a teacher? It seems someone at your level could share so much more. If you want to save lessons for your school, I understand. But I'm sure you have even more to share...

Another thing, I didn't grow up on jazz. So when you mention playing "good" music, as you frequently do, what are you referring to? "Good" can be very subjective, IMO. I am curious exactly what it is you think we should be aspiring to. I'm asking because I suspect others may be wondering the same thing. In your opinion, what is "good" music, especially for a bass player?

I thought to share answers about specific questions which I've been doing. The emphasise on teachers is important because many players many not know that nobody can play what they don't know. If you have a specific question, please ask me and I will try to help.

 

[JeffBerlin]

I don't understand what you're looking for, jeff's point in advising teachers is so you can have someone more qualified than you assess you personally and guide you in how to improve, that can't be done via this forum. Jeff does offer the general things here; reading trombone music, practice chord tones, learn songs by ear etc...

Yes! I think that people sometimes feel that there are more ways to skin a cat, but actually there aren't. Music teachers and great music education makes it necessary to know how to play bass in order to represent it. Practically everything that most people believe will give them improved musical skills won't becasue they are not based in musical principles. I just wanted people to know that if they really wished to get better as players. But, you guys know me; I will tell the truth no matter who it offends because it isn't personal. It's the truth!

 

[JeffBerlin]

That's the same simple minded, faulty "If you don't love it, leave it" logic used against people protesting the Vietnam war....when the reason they were speaking up was precisely because they did care. THand's comment was respectful, coherent and moving toward resolution. Your comment was knee-jerk and inflammatory.

Well......

I think that because I speak in most absolutes, some people get mad. And let's be honest. It was pointed out that there are over tw hundred thousand members here. Some are going to feel insulted if I disregard what they believe in.

It is true that controversy follows me in these pages, probably because I fall into the Howard Cosell or John Lennon manner of communication. Martin Luther King was beautiful when he talked about racism. Malcom X was villified. I simply have no room for B.S. even while I try to take everybody who agress or not agrees with me and treat them with respect. A couple of guys here didn't and now they are gone. So, let's start a clean slate and chat. And if you don't like what I am saying, let me know.

A few times in the last couple of days, I asked people to spell out for me what it is that I have done to offend them. So far nobody has responded. It just might be that their resentment about my comments simply happened because some guys heard that I am a hard guy and accepted the repI'm not! Ask anyone who knows me! I am a guy who hates B.S. and I call it out. I suppose that this can fire up some guys and I should accept that when you stir up the firepot, then flames will appear.

 

[THand]

I don't understand what you're looking for, jeff's point in advising teachers is so you can have someone more qualified than you assess you personally and guide you in how to improve, that can't be done via this forum. Jeff does offer the general things here; reading trombone music, practice chord tones, learn songs by ear etc...

I already can learn by ear and play chord tones and can actually read. BUT, I learned to read on piano. I have never seen reading actually applied to electric bass. Chord Charts, yes. Nashville number system, yes...but not reading. I still would like to improve, but what should I be reading? Ok, Trombone music...I don't play trombone, so..what trombone music...songs & publishers in specific, because I do not know. That's supposed to be the purpose of him being here right, to help those of us who may not know?

So if I am to aspire to be a better musician playing good music, what is wrong with asking him to define this "good music"?

And point us to the source of it's sheet music and some downloads to listen to and get our ears adjusted to?

Are we talking "Autumn Leaves" or something else?

 

[THand]

This forum makes me sad. So much potential, like most Berlin threads, and yet it fails to deliver anything substantial,IMO.

Jeff, I respect your talent and dedication to music. I ask this respectfully, please do not take it as a insult, but it seems your threads are pretty much: get a teacher...can't find one, come to my school. and insults.

I know some here go/plan to go/ or have attended your school, so you basically get alot of free advertisement for you school here. I, personally had not heard of it outside of TB...so you reached me anyway.

So my question is, do you intend to share anything else besides the advice of learning to read, and get a teacher? It seems someone at your level could share so much more. If you want to save lessons for your school, I understand. But I'm sure you have even more to share...

Another thing, I didn't grow up on jazz. So when you mention playing "good" music, as you frequently do, what are you referring to? "Good" can be very subjective, IMO. I am curious exactly what it is you think we should be aspiring to. I'm asking because I suspect others may be wondering the same thing. In your opinion, what is "good" music, especially for a bass player?

I bolded what I thought were specific questions. I understand if you were skimming through and missed them, but they were there. Thank You.

 

[JeffBerlin]

I already can learn by ear and play chord tones and can actually read. BUT, I learned to read on piano. I have never seen reading actually applied to electric bass. Chord Charts, yes. Nashville number system, yes...but not reading. I still would like to improve, but what should I be reading? Ok, Trombone music...I don't play trombone, so..what trombone music...songs & publishers in specific, because I do not know. That's supposed to be the purpose of him being here right, to help those of us who may not know?

So if I am to aspire to be a better musician playing good music, what is wrong with asking him to define this "good music"?

And point us to the source of it's sheet music and some downloads to listen to and get our ears adjusted to?

Are we talking "Autumn Leaves" or something else?

Good questions all. And they are broad and can't be answered here. Why? Because I have no idea how good your ear is. I don't know what you can or can't do on bass. It is really hard to offer solid advice for somebody whose playing and musical ability, experience, knowledge of bass, knowledge of music are unknown to me.

This is why I try (not with much success) to tell people to study properly with good teachers. Go anywhere where music is taught. Avoid classes where music is not the 100% center of your studies.

Trombone music is a broad principle and reading is a skill that is best acquired by learning how to read out of time, counting, sometimes subdividing, and reviewing instantly your mistakes and correcting them.
P.S. If you study well, in three months, you will be almost unrecognizable as a bass player.

P.P.S "The Good Stuff" contains chord tones, approach notes, soloing for academic reasons, not just art, and practicing various musical elements in 12 keys that are written to represent chord tonalities in various ways.

 

[kesslari]

Well......

I think that because I speak in most absolutes, some people get mad.

Hi Jeff,

We had what I think was a pretty civil discussion recently, that ended in you providing me with some concrete and valid musical suggestions, so I feel qualified to comment. By the way, thank you for that conversation - that was an instance where getting to the specifics clarified the generalities nicely.

You do speak in absolutes. You also speak in generalities, which are easily misunderstood. Concept words like "Music" or "God" can mean many different things to different people.

I can easily provide a context where two people are talking about "God" and believe they are in absolute agreement (or violent disagreement) and are respectively talking about two very different things or two absolutely similar things. Concept words are messy and inaccurate tools for that reason, and require clarification and examples to make sure both parties are truly understanding the same concept.

Generalities are OK, but they come to life with clarification and examples.

One area where I disagree with you strongly - in all things, there are many ways to learn. I've spent a lot of my life involved with, studying and researching learning theory - humans learn in a variety of ways. Kinesthetic learners, auditory learners, visual learners - that's one breakdown. There are others.

The best way to study a language is to study that language. That seems self-evident. It is analogous to your point "the best way to learn music is to study music".
Is it possible for a foreigner to learn English by studying engineering? Absolutely - I've seen it. Is it as "efficient" as by studying English? Maybe not usually. It was in these instances, because the student was motivated to learn from engineering resources that were only available in English, and so had to learn enough English to learn the materials. Would they have progressed faster if they had studied "English"? Theoretically yes, but they weren't motivated to learn English per se, and so they wouldn't have done it.

Anyway, you asked "what to people have trouble with?" and there's an answer for you. I don't expect to change your mind - you are clearly a person of strongly held beliefs and opinions. I am simply trying to plant a seed for your consideration. Perhaps at some point when you encounter someone who is not "getting it" you may remember that seed and try a slightly different approach, and perhaps it may succeed for both of you.

 

[longrange]

That's the same simple minded, faulty "If you don't love it, leave it" logic used against people protesting the Vietnam war....when the reason they were speaking up was precisely because they did care. THand's comment was respectful, coherent and moving toward resolution. Your comment was knee-jerk and inflammatory.

Ha! In all of this I'm the inflammatory one. So be it...

 

[Chansey]

Just to satisfy a personal curiosity, I was wondering what it will be like to bring say...a five/six string bass...or maybe a fretless bass to the PSOM. I understand that these instruments are not what you personally prefer, and perhaps not ideal "learning instruments", but what if that fretless 6 string bass is all the player has? Or perhaps he is eager to create his own voice on such an instrument? Will you all provide a loaner 4 string fretted instrument perhaps? In fact, I am also curious if loaners/instruments for purchase are available to students from overseas. Just something I was mulling over in case I ever head down there in the future.

 

[THand]

Good questions all. And they are broad and can't be answered here. Why? Because I have no idea how good your ear is. I don't know what you can or can't do on bass. It is really hard to offer solid advice for somebody whose playing and musical ability, experience, knowledge of bass, knowledge of music are unknown to me.

This is why I try (not with much success) to tell people to study properly with good teachers. Go anywhere where music is taught. Avoid classes where music is not the 100% center of your studies.

Trombone music is a broad principle and reading is a skill that is best acquired by learning how to read out of time, counting, sometimes subdividing, and reviewing instantly your mistakes and correcting them.
P.S. If you study well, in three months, you will be almost unrecognizable as a bass player.

P.P.S "The Good Stuff" contains chord tones, approach notes, soloing for academic reasons, not just art, and practicing various musical elements in 12 keys that are written to represent chord tonalities in various ways.

I'm already almost unrecognizable as a bass player!

Seriously, I appreciate you trying to answer me & I understand what you are saying now when you are talking about the "good stuff"

One problem for me is that there is No Where in my area to study music academically. Another is that I have a career and family,& too many obligations in life, so I cannot attend your school(or Wooten's, or anybody else's) anytime soon. I have bought all of Carol Kaye's material, including the music reading DVD and most of Ed Friedland's material. Should I buy anything else? If you have material for learning to read on bass, let me know, I'll probably buy it too.

If not, what would be a good source for sheet music for the "good" stuff? Thanks!

 

[nic salsus]

Ha! In all of this I'm the inflammatory one. So be it...

No, you just said something that was a little inflammatory and very knee-jerk in one post. It doesn't mean you're a bad person or that anything else you've said isn't valid.

 

[JeffBerlin]

Hi Jeff, We had what I think was a pretty civil discussion recently, that ended in you providing me with some concrete and valid musical suggestions, so I feel qualified to comment. By the way, thank you for that conversation - that was an instance where getting to the specifics clarified the generalities nicely.

JEFF Good to hear!

kesslari-You do speak in absolutes. You also speak in generalities, which are easily misunderstood. Concept words like "Music" or "God" can mean many different things to different people.

JEFF- True! But I don't tell people about the meaning of music. In fact, I avoid it totally! I tell people about how to learn it!

kesslari- I can easily provide a context where two people are talking about "God" and believe they are in absolute agreement (or violent disagreement) and are respectively talking about two very different things or two absolutely similar things. Concept words are messy and inaccurate tools for that reason, and require clarification and examples to make sure both parties are truly understanding the same concept. Generalities are OK, but they come to life with clarification and examples.

JEFF- But, this is why they are called generalities. They aren't specific sometimes. But they do touch upon broad principles and they do appliy to many people.

kesslari-One area where I disagree with you strongly - in all things, there are many ways to learn. I've spent a lot of my life involved with, studying and researching learning theory - humans learn in a variety of ways. Kinesthetic learners, auditory learners, visual learners - that's one breakdown. There are others.

JEFF A couple of people earlier mentioned cooking omelettes and so I will use this analogy: How many ways are there to cook an omelette. The answer is only a couple. You can add a million things to the omelette, but there is only one or two ways to cook it. If dyslexics learn differently from tunnel visioned people who learn differently from people with ADHD, they still have to learn the same lesson as everybody else with the very same information even if the method is different. For us, if music is not a part of that lessons, then you won't improve as a musician because practically nobody has. Example: after hearing you, I know that you can't solo very well over chord changes. But you certainly have the potential to do so if you learn via perfect musical information the correct and specific ways to do this.

kesslari-The best way to study a language is to study that language. That seems self-evident. It is analogous to your point "the best way to learn music is to study music".
Is it possible for a foreigner to learn English by studying engineering? Absolutely - I've seen it. Is it as "efficient" as by studying English? Maybe not usually. It was in these instances, because the student was motivated to learn from engineering resources that were only available in English, and so had to learn enough English to learn the materials. Would they have progressed faster if they had studied "English"? Theoretically yes, but they weren't motivated to learn English per se, and so they wouldn't have done it.

JEFF Well, let's just chose people who chose to learn English as an example! People basically all study English via classroom instruction. This means that all teachers agree that these very same English words, these very same grammatical principles and these very same Enlgish letters alphabet need to be regarded. Without the grammar, you won't learn English and therefore, everybody learns the same information even if the teaching method only slightly varies. It's the same with music.

kesslari- Anyway, you asked "what to people have trouble with?" and there's an answer for you. I don't expect to change your mind - you are clearly a person of strongly held beliefs and opinions. I am simply trying to plant a seed for your consideration. Perhaps at some point when you encounter someone who is not "getting it" you may remember that seed and try a slightly different approach, and perhaps it may succeed for both of you.

JEFF- I did and I hope that I answered your thoughts. I am not against people taking on their own education. This is their choice. But I am totally against people teaching when they aren't qualified to teach. Narrow's the way to great musical skills and you won't get them with a metronome or tab. Teachers still teach with both.

 

[JeffBerlin]

Just to satisfy a personal curiosity, I was wondering what it will be like to bring say...a five/six string bass...or maybe a fretless bass to the PSOM. I understand that these instruments are not what you personally prefer, and perhaps not ideal "learning instruments", but what if that fretless 6 string bass is all the player has? Or perhaps he is eager to create his own voice on such an instrument? Will you all provide a loaner 4 string fretted instrument perhaps? In fact, I am also curious if loaners/instruments for purchase are available to students from overseas. Just something I was mulling over in case I ever head down there in the future.

One should play the bass that makes them happy. We have lots of 5 or 6 string bass players who come here. The school doesn't have a loaner bass because the guys need to practice on their instrument at home sometimes. I would also recommend that you not bring a fretless bass at all as fretless requires attention to play in tune. I would prefer that you guys only focuse on the music that you need to play and learn better. But this is only a suggestion.