Jeff's Thread. No Topic! Just Go for It. But, Be Nice!

[JeffBerlin]

Jeff - If you were to leave it'd be a significant loss to so many of us here. You give your time (something i guess is your most highly prized posession) free of charge in the hope of improving us as players.

I seriously hope you find the circumstances tenable.

thank you,

Andy

Naaaah! I'll hang! If the moderators can be fair with me and if we can talk in a nice manner, I'm YOURSSSSSS!

 

[JeffBerlin]

I bolded what I thought were specific questions. I understand if you were skimming through and missed them, but they were there. Thank You.

Do me a favor and take out the specific questions that you wish me to answer. It is easier if you do this and I will give it my best shot.

 

[THand]

Hi Jeff, We had what I think was a pretty civil discussion recently, that ended in you providing me with some concrete and valid musical suggestions, so I feel qualified to comment. By the way, thank you for that conversation - that was an instance where getting to the specifics clarified the generalities nicely.

JEFF Good to hear!

kesslari-You do speak in absolutes. You also speak in generalities, which are easily misunderstood. Concept words like "Music" or "God" can mean many different things to different people.

JEFF- True! But I don't tell people about the meaning of music. In fact, I avoid it totally! I tell people about how to learn it!

kesslari- I can easily provide a context where two people are talking about "God" and believe they are in absolute agreement (or violent disagreement) and are respectively talking about two very different things or two absolutely similar things. Concept words are messy and inaccurate tools for that reason, and require clarification and examples to make sure both parties are truly understanding the same concept. Generalities are OK, but they come to life with clarification and examples.

JEFF- But, this is why they are called generalities. They aren't specific sometimes. But they do touch upon broad principles and they do appliy to many people.

kesslari-One area where I disagree with you strongly - in all things, there are many ways to learn. I've spent a lot of my life involved with, studying and researching learning theory - humans learn in a variety of ways. Kinesthetic learners, auditory learners, visual learners - that's one breakdown. There are others.

JEFF A couple of people earlier mentioned cooking omelettes and so I will use this analogy: How many ways are there to cook an omelette. The answer is only a couple. You can add a million things to the omelette, but there is only one or two ways to cook it. If dyslexics learn differently from tunnel visioned people who learn differently from people with ADHD, they still have to learn the same lesson as everybody else with the very same information even if the method is different. For us, if music is not a part of that lessons, then you won't improve as a musician because practically nobody has. Example: after hearing you, I know that you can't solo very well over chord changes. But you certainly have the potential to do so if you learn via perfect musical information the correct and specific ways to do this.

kesslari-The best way to study a language is to study that language. That seems self-evident. It is analogous to your point "the best way to learn music is to study music".
Is it possible for a foreigner to learn English by studying engineering? Absolutely - I've seen it. Is it as "efficient" as by studying English? Maybe not usually. It was in these instances, because the student was motivated to learn from engineering resources that were only available in English, and so had to learn enough English to learn the materials. Would they have progressed faster if they had studied "English"? Theoretically yes, but they weren't motivated to learn English per se, and so they wouldn't have done it.

JEFF People basically all study English via classroom instruction. This means that all teachers agree that these very same English words, these very same grammatical principles and these very same Enlgish letters alphabet need to be regarded. Without the grammar, you won't learn English and therefore, everybody learns the same information even if the teaching method only slightly varies. It's the same with music.

kesslari- Anyway, you asked "what to people have trouble with?" and there's an answer for you. I don't expect to change your mind - you are clearly a person of strongly held beliefs and opinions. I am simply trying to plant a seed for your consideration. Perhaps at some point when you encounter someone who is not "getting it" you may remember that seed and try a slightly different approach, and perhaps it may succeed for both of you.

JEFF- I did and I hope that I answered your thoughts. I am not against people taking on their own education. This is their choice. But I am totally against people teaching when they aren't qualified to teach. Narrow's the way to great musical skills and you won't get them with a metronome or tab. Teachers still teach with both.

Not trying to argue, but the English analogy is wrong.

1. Plenty of immigrants learn English w/o setting foot in a classroom
2. Everybody, except the mute can speak a language before they ever enter a classroom. If a 4 or 5 year old can't carry on a conversation, something is wrong.

 

[kesslari]

JEFF- I did and I hope that I answered your thoughts. I am not against people taking on their own education. This is their choice. But I am totally against people teaching when they aren't qualified to teach. Narrow's the way to great musical skills and you won't get them with a metronome or tab. Teachers still teach with both.

No arguments on either of those points (you can't get to musical heaven in a car driven by tab or a metronome).

JEFF People basically all study English via classroom instruction. This means that all teachers agree that these very same English words, these very same grammatical principles and these very same Enlgish letters alphabet need to be regarded. Without the grammar, you won't learn English and therefore, everybody learns the same information even if the teaching method only slightly varies. It's the same with music.

Many people may study English in a classroom, but most learn it well before entering the classroom. We learn grammar by hearing grammatically correct English - that's why kids who can't tell a participle from a predicate can still speak perfectly correct and understandable English. True with all languages for native speakers, and for many languages for non-native speakers as well.

 

[JeffBerlin]

Not trying to argue, but the English analogy is wrong.

1. Plenty of immigrants learn English w/o setting foot in a classroom
2. Everybody, except the mute can speak a language before they ever enter a classroom. If a 4 or 5 year old can't carry on a conversation, something is wrong.

Naaah! No arguement. We're just chatting here!

These immigrants didn't learn English in a lesson situation. If one seeks out lessons, then you should be learning the correct material to get you what you are seeking. There are plenty of self-taught people in different areas. I'm not talking about them because they have no rules to regard as to how they learn.

 

[THand]

Naaah! No arguement. We're just chatting here!

These immigrants didn't learn English in a lesson situation. If one seeks out lessons, then you should be learning the correct material to get you what you are seeking. There are plenty of self-taught people in different areas. I'm not talking about them because they have no rules to regard as to how they learn.

Agreed!

 

[JeffBerlin]

No arguments on either of those points (you can't get to musical heaven in a car driven by tab or a metronome).



Many people may study English in a classroom, but most learn it well before entering the classroom. We learn grammar by hearing grammatically correct English - that's why kids who can't tell a participle from a predicate can still speak perfectly correct and understandable English. True with all languages for native speakers, and for many languages for non-native speakers as well.

Let's go backwards a step or two: There's a guy who wants to learn English. He doesn't know it now. He pays a check at a school or tutor who, if she is doing this correctly, will teach him the words, the letters and the grammar of English. To learn the facts you have to be shown what they are. There are no exceptions. No matter the manner, no matter the background, no matter anything whatsoever, if somebody wants to acquire skills in a subject, somehow, someway, they need to learn the facts. If they hear what they hear, this doesn't mean that they can speak it, spell it, write it. The facts in a classroom are what they are and they are practically alway taught the same way because they are facts, not an expression of language.

 

[kesslari]

Cool. As for you, if you want to learn how to play better over chord changes, you need to start with chord tones ONLY! No scales, not approach notes, no upbeats on the top of each bar. You need to practice only the chord tones for a couple of weeks.

That is concrete and understandable, and therefore beautiful. I get what you're saying, and so I can do that (and have started working on it in my daily practice).

 

[THand]

Do me a favor and take out the specific questions that you wish me to answer. It is easier if you do this and I will give it my best shot.

OK. You have already hit of some of it, but here they are:

1. So when you mention playing "good" music, as you frequently do, what are you referring to?

2."Good" can be very subjective, IMO. I am curious exactly what it is you think we should be aspiring to.

3.In your opinion, what is "good" music, especially for a bass player?

If you could name some artist/songs, that would be very helpful.
Thanks.

 

[JeffBerlin]

That is concrete and understandable, and therefore beautiful. I get what you're saying, and so I can do that (and have started working on it in my daily practice).

The truth is, I've been concrete for months over here about loads of these things and people still argued, acted confused, and simly could not or would not get what I said. Learning was never such a complication as some people make it.

 

[Jim Campbell]

I'm already almost unrecognizable as a bass player!

Seriously, I appreciate you trying to answer me & I understand what you are saying now when you are talking about the "good stuff"

One problem for me is that there is No Where in my area to study music academically. Another is that I have a career and family,& too many obligations in life, so I cannot attend your school(or Wooten's, or anybody else's) anytime soon. I have bought all of Carol Kaye's material, including the music reading DVD and most of Ed Friedland's material. Should I buy anything else? If you have material for learning to read on bass, let me know, I'll probably buy it too.

If not, what would be a good source for sheet music for the "good" stuff? Thanks!

try the aebersold bass line books and the corresponding books..... they are great for sight practice and taking apart to study how bass lines are constructed.....for other reading practice there is a ton of material available in books,on line,geetar rags(the new tab only ones can be rewritten)check out the tab forum here too.....

 

[THand]

try the aebersold bass line books and the corresponding books..... they are great for sight practice and taking apart to study how bass lines are constructed.....for other reading practice there is a ton of material available in books,on line,geetar rags(the new tab only ones can be rewritten)check out the tab forum here too.....

Thanks, Jim!

 

[finalrequiem]

Here is where I think the "English" analogy shines- The 5 year old can talk, carry on a conversation even, but in order for that 5 year old (or immigrant) to take their communication skills to an advanced level they HAVE to learn the rules and fundamental principals behind the form of communication. It applies to music as well. If you want to have the ability to express yourself musically in the most advanced way possible, you have to learn the "facts". Now, whether someone WANTS to have those tools in their tool bag, so to speak, is up to them but there is no way around the fact that you have to learn in the first place. IMHO, and all that jazz...

 

[Jim Campbell]

That is concrete and understandable, and therefore beautiful. I get what you're saying, and so I can do that (and have started working on it in my daily practice).

i've got a routine worked out where i do E A D G on day one,by arpeggiating each chord all over the neck ie....Emaj7,F#minor7,G#minor7,Amajor7,B7...etc
then A,D,G......day two is F,Bb,Eb,Ab,....day 3 is C,Db,B,F#....28 chords at 3 minutes each.....afgter a time i did them in minor keys alternating

 

[BassyBill]

Hi guys - just checking in to see what's afoot. At the moment, this thread is shaping up to be a first rate read, and I wanted to say that I'm really enjoying it over here. THIS is what we should be getting in the GI forum, I think.

Keep those questions and answers coming!

 

[kesslari]

Let's go backwards a step or two: There's a guy who wants to learn English. He doesn't know it now. He pays a check at a school or tutor who, if she is doing this correctly, will teach him the words, the letters and the grammar of English.

But that's not the only way to learn English. In fact, I'm quite certain that none of my grandparents learned English that way when they came over from The Old Country. That's all I'm saying - there are other ways.

To learn the facts you have to be shown what they are. There are no exceptions. No matter the manner, no matter the background, no matter anything whatsoever, if somebody wants to acquire skills in a subject, somehow, someway, they need to learn the facts.

On this point we agree.

If they hear what they hear, this doesn't mean that they can speak it, spell it, write it.

It doesn't mean that they can't, either. Though spelling is perhaps the most difficult to learn without a formalized approach.

The facts in a classroom are what they are and they are practically alway taught the same way because they are facts, not an expression of language.

Um... what is taught in the classroom is not necessarily fact. Evolution and strict creationism are mutually and factually contradictory, and yet both are being taught in some classrooms, with a strong outcry from certain quarters that both be taught in ALL classrooms.

We're drifting farther from the point here, which is that you believe and espouse that there is One Right Way to learn music, and I disagree. I don't disagree with the points you raise about music (learn to read, learn chords and chord tones on your way to master your instrument) - that is your strong skill, and those are good points. As I said, I don't expect to change your mind on the One Right Way issue (wasn't that an Allman Bros song? ).
We can let it rest.

 

[JeffBerlin]

Here is where I think the "English" analogy shines- The 5 year old can talk, carry on a conversation even, but in order for that 5 year old (or immigrant) to take their communication skills to an advanced level they HAVE to learn the rules and fundamental principals behind the form of communication. It applies to music as well. If you want to have the ability to express yourself musically in the most advanced way possible, you have to learn the "facts". Now, whether someone WANTS to have those tools in their tool bag, so to speak, is up to them but there is no way around the fact that you have to learn in the first place. IMHO, and all that jazz...

This is very well said. I am glad that some guys are beginning to understand this. This is good news.

 

[JeffBerlin]

Um... what is taught in the classroom is not necessarily fact. Evolution and strict creationism are mutually and factually contradictory, and yet both are being taught in some classrooms, with a strong outcry from certain quarters that both be taught in ALL classrooms.

.

Certainly I would agree with you on this when it comes to music because many guys don't know how to teach it. But classrooms in the basic and upper structured educations should be trusted or else why even learn anything in school

 

[Jim Campbell]

But that's not the only way to learn English. In fact, I'm quite certain that none of my grandparents learned English that way when they came over from The Old Country. That's all I'm saying - there are other ways.



On this point we agree.

It doesn't mean that they can't, either. Though spelling is perhaps the most difficult to learn without a formalized approach.



Um... what is taught in the classroom is not necessarily fact. Evolution and strict creationism are mutually and factually contradictory, and yet both are being taught in some classrooms, with a strong outcry from certain quarters that both be taught in ALL classrooms.

We're drifting farther from the point here, which is that you believe and espouse that there is One Right Way to learn music, and I disagree. I don't disagree with the points you raise about music (learn to read, learn chords and chord tones on your way to master your instrument) - that is your strong skill, and those are good points. As I said, I don't expect to change your mind on the One Right Way issue (wasn't that an Allman Bros song? ).
We can let it rest.

one way out i believe....subjects like math and physics,and music can be taught without interpretation as the rules are hard and fast.....2+2 is always 4,a Cmajor is always C,E,G

 

[JeffBerlin]

Hi guys - just checking in to see what's afoot. At the moment, this thread is shaping up to be a first rate read, and I wanted to say that I'm really enjoying it over here. THIS is what we should be getting in the GI forum, I think.

Keep those questions and answers coming!

Aw @$#*(^&@#&*(^@#%)(*^ A MODERATOR

Things are OK. I told off the moderator of this thread who promply made me stand in the corner. So far, the airways are quiet, because only the guys into music are here to chat; the troublemakers are gone, but I expect another wrist smack after this comment from me.

What are you up to?