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Kanye West

New Zealand's schooling the U.S. on hip-hop culture! :D

Just teasing - lots of good points made in your post.

If you feel like you've been "schooled" then I'm glad you enjoyed your lesson. Hip-hop "culture" was not an original part of my post but other people on TB think it relevant to the argument. I can't wait for the discussion about death metal "culture", prog rock "culture" and let's cover polka "culture" while we're at it since it apparently is is a deciding factor as to whether or not so-n-so is a "musician" and what is and is not music. That being said I wouldn't mind visiting new zealand one day along with England and many parts of Europe as well as Japan. :bassist:
 
If you feel like you've been "schooled" then I'm glad you enjoyed your lesson. Hip-hop "culture" was not an original part of my post but other people on TB think it relevant to the argument. I can't wait for the discussion about death metal "culture", prog rock "culture" and let's cover polka "culture" while we're at it since it apparently is is a deciding factor as to whether or not so-n-so is a "musician" and what is and is not music. That being said I wouldn't mind visiting new zealand one day along with England and many parts of Europe as well as Japan. :bassist:

DJing is part of hip-hop "culture". The DJ's "instrument" (whether you want to accept it as such or not) is his turntable. So, in that way, the cultural aspect of hip-hop is relevant (if we're discussing what is and what is not an instrument). Don't be too quick to dismiss the relevance of culture when discussing what constitutes a musician or an instrument. I mean, why would culture not come into it? And as someone who has been to NZ several times I vouch for its being one of the most beautiful places on earth. :)
 
DJing is part of hip-hop "culture". The DJ's "instrument" (whether you want to accept it as such or not) is his turntable. So, in that way, the cultural aspect of hip-hop is relevant (if we're discussing what is and what is not an instrument). Don't be too quick to dismiss the relevance of culture when discussing what constitutes a musician or an instrument. I mean, why would culture not come into it? And as someone who has been to NZ several times I vouch for its being one of the most beautiful places on earth. :)


I won't express my opinion of DJ's here as like with the culture argument isn't relevant to my original post. If some rich kid chooses to pursue a career in the rap/hip-hop field I'm pretty sure that his "culture" was not a part in his decision. And if I were to critique him as to whether or not he is an actual musician culture wouldn't com into play. Or if somebody from the ghetto had his sight's set on being the next George Strait again culture wouldn't be a factor. So I do separate the two. And again I look forward to traveling abroad one day :)
 
why do these hiphoppers insist on blasting this stuff at top volume so that we all can listen too, what are they trying to prove? How about a little respect for the rest of us like they always claim they're deserving of, F*ck that sh*t ! I'd like to pop an F'n cap in there F'n stereo.
 
DJing is part of hip-hop "culture". The DJ's "instrument" (whether you want to accept it as such or not) is his turntable. So, in that way, the cultural aspect of hip-hop is relevant (if we're discussing what is and what is not an instrument). Don't be too quick to dismiss the relevance of culture when discussing what constitutes a musician or an instrument. I mean, why would culture not come into it? And as someone who has been to NZ several times I vouch for its being one of the most beautiful places on earth. :)

Precisely. All music is a cultural product and reflects that culture.

If some rich kid chooses to pursue a career in the rap/hip-hop field I'm pretty sure that his "culture" was not a part in his decision.

Again, precisely! This produces the Mac Miller's and Ryan Lewis'. Much to my dismay.
 
ImageUploadedByTalkBass1369961761.168982.jpg
 
If some rich kid chooses to pursue a career in the rap/hip-hop field I'm pretty sure that his "culture" was not a part in his decision.

Cultures move and spread, and can unite people from very different social backgrounds. The evolution of rock music would have been different if a bunch of rich kids in London in the 60s hadn't felt some kind of kinship with blues musicians...
 
acoustic drums are capable of playing a melody

Did I not say there needs to be some sort of melody? I never said what instrument it should be played on.

Does the melody have to be contained within the vocals? If so, that is awfully constraining to expression.

Kanye has something to say in a coherent way within each of his albums, which you really can't appreciate without actually listening. Yeah he might be a douche, aren't most musicians? He is completely aware of this, he talks about his failings a lot. The braggadocio is usually a foil to this.

Regarding his work with Jay-Z, I think Jay is coming around to Kanye's viewpoint, Watch the Throne shows a more introspective Jigga IMO. He said something about his next album being more along those lines as well.

As to the Bush and Swift incidents, Kanye wasn't wrong.
 
What does what you grew up on have to do with it? I grew up on Coltrane and Muddy Waters. I listen to a very, very wide range of music, but I'm not quite sure how that's relevant.

Yes, I do consider Kanye, currently, to be utter BS. Your whole concept of hip hop culture is based off of the whackest representations that are playing a game to make a buck. None of them have much to do with hip hop culture at all. Hip hop isn't just music, it's an attitude. Amiri Baraka is just as hip hop as Wu-Tang. Thelonious Monk is probably the most hip hop cat there ever was.

An MPC IS an instrument. The OED says an instrument is: "That which is used by an agent in or for the performance of an action; a thing with or through which something is done or effected; anything that serves or contributes to the accomplishment of a purpose or end; a means". You know, like a tool, or implement. Do I have to make where I'm going with this any more clear?

This idea that hip hop is "stolen samples" "roland drum pattern" "overly slick production" "speaking in a rhythmic manner" all comes from, once again, your idea of hip hop. You've got the wrong end of the stick. As for asking a REAL musician... I can point to countless great, great musicians who are highly respectful of, and indebted to hip hop culture. D'Angelo, Prince, Michael Jackson, James Poyser, Michael League, J Dilla (he's a producer but he played many of the drum, bass and keys samples that he used). This could be a very long list. Hell, Robert Glasper blew up in a more mainstream sense recently when he decided to blend the two musics he loves and grew up with (hip hop and jazz) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25IGnjE-iSM - check the way that cat is playing drums, like he's a drum machine. You know, these INSTRUMENTS can influence 'REAL' instruments, too.

As for the "half-assed rock bands" comment, I wasn't taking a dig at the music. I love a lot of different kinds of rock n roll. All I was saying is that it tends to be rock musicians in shi**y bands, playing shi**y renditions that you wouldn't want your dog to hear, that have this stupid attitude cause it doesn't necessarily confirm their world view. All of the "REAL" musicians that I personally know are indebted to hip hop while making their own music of various styles. I'm sure hip hop artists appreciate you talking down about their entire culture based off of what white america considers profitable (a.k.a the idiots). Hell, I bet dream theatre has respect for hip hop producers.

"Hard core"? "From the streets"? Gangsta rap is what you're referring to and, once again, it's a very small part of hip hop culture only amplified by MTV. When hip hop artists mention violence, greed, pride, lust etc, it's not always a representation of the artist, but of the society they come from. Do you think Wu-Tang, when saying, "cash rules everything around me" are saying money is all they care about? Come on. Yes, all "uber popular music" is whack. ALL of it. That includes all "uber popular" hip hop.

Lets take your notions of what hip hop is. If I've understood you correctly, you think it's all stolen samples, basic drum patterns, shallow lyrical content blah blah blah.

J Dilla (best producer of all time, IMO) with Common and D'Angelo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AdZK0HeYkwM

MF DOOM (a rapper who wears a mask as a protest to the image fetish in popular hip hop, who is also probably the most clever rapper today) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s4iR668Ki3I
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WW-9TcDTKa8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rpaonSDPw7Y

That song ^ is produced by Madlib, a wizard of the MPC and various other INSTRUMENTS who referred to J Dilla as the 'Coltrane of Beats' and was given permission by Blue Note Records to use anything from their vaults to remix their catalogue because they understood his contribution to the culture of urban music. That's right, jazz is urban music, not white americas dinner music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QHMrJNZaatE

Seriously, look up the way J Dilla flips a sample if you think all he's doing is stealing bits of other songs. At least school yourself before you start talking.

The good thing is all these people that I've mentioned are having a positive effect on hip hop. All the guys who are rising up from the underground now are, in some way, from the MF DOOM school of rapping. All the producers I can think of today, and that's a lot, are 'post-J Dilla'.
https://soundcloud.com/chillchildren/lunch-lightsabers
https://soundcloud.com/chillchildren/gardens
^ A couple of mates of mine whose work you've dismissed, and are very, very clever.

Sorry for the essay. Nah, jokes, I'm not. I can't change your opinion about hip hop, but I hope you at least realise your opinion is based off of a very skewed representation of what hip hop is. If I'm successful, this was worth the time. If I'm not, I'm procrastinating so I don't really care.

Damn, this sh** needs to be a sticky so ignorant cats can be pointed here. Nah, lets go back to talking bout Jamerson and you lot have fun playing Sweet Home Alabama

1) I only listed the music I grew up on to let everybody know that I'm not some ignorant backwoods inbred who thinks that hank williams jr is God (no offense if anybody here is a fan ;) ). I personally can't stand him but I do like his father's work.

2) The majority of rap/hip-hop as well as most all popular music IS in fact about making a buck. I recall bone-thugs-n-harmony (excuse my misspelling of their name) in a interview where they said "...they can call it gansta, thugsta, whatever...it's all about the money, man". And that is more or less a direct quote. It was from years ago but statements that shallow usually stick with me...

3) I guess that the millions of people who play what are commonly thought as real musical instrument and I will just have to disagree with you on the MPC debate.

4) There are equally as many respected musicians who are NOT indebted to hip-hop culture. And this isn't about producers. While many producers play instruments (Bob Rock and Andy Leroque come to mind) I don't view them as "musicians" unless they are playing that role on that day. Bob Rock played bass with metallica during a show I believe so he was playing the role of musician that day. Metallica and countless other bands write their own music and then the producer helps to fine tune the songs IF need be...he doesn't write them for the band. If kanye needs someone else to "craft" a product for his chosen field that is indeed sad. I watched the video link and yes the drummer is good but doesn't make or break the song. I've seen worse and I've seen better. It was decent for about 30-45 seconds...until the verse/vocals came in and I had to close it out. The band Neurosis has stated that their sound (for a while anyway) was influenced by industrial machine. So you are correct in saying that machines can influence instruments. :)

5) Having played music in the rock genre for many years I agree that there are countless bands who should no exist and yet they do. But crappy bands/artists exist in ALL genre's. All the "REAL" musicians I know are NOT indebted to hip-hop while writing and crafting their music. And why bring "white america" into this? Do they market kanye's music? Or most hip-hop? Probably not but you are correct as they do know how to market products to the mindless masses (but that isn't just "white america" that does that now is it)? And if dream theater has respect for hip-hop producers then you should feel good about that I suppose. I've never read that in an article but hey stranger things have happened.

6) I was referring to gansta rap but musically the styles are pretty dang similar. And I know that the song content is usually about their society and life experiences. It's their outlet and means of expression I get that. Lot's of people express themselves though music however. And some is listenable and more-than-some is not-so-listenable. And yes ALL popular music is "whack" as you put it.

7) We will have to agree to disagree on what I think constitutes the rap/hip-hop song "writing" process.

8 + 9) Not sure how one argues who is the "best producer"...I very seldom give them any thought. And I tried to listen to your video links and just did not "get it". LOL though at the use of the phrase "clever rapper". I do appreciate a good wordsmith though. ;)

10) I do KNOW that jazz is urban music thank you very much. Not sure why you brought up "white americas dinner music"...what did white america ever do to you? They seem to crap on everybody these days regardless of the color of one's skin.

11) Let me know in english what "flipping a sample" means and I will get back to you on this.

12) Not sure why you continue to bring up "producers" and "clever rappers" in a discussion about kayne...

13) I also enjoy debates but I prefer mine to stay on topic. If I ever want to get into a discussion about hip-hop culture i will PM you ;)

14) "Needs to be a sticky"? "Ignorant cats"? Not sure what that first part means and you insult many musicians with the second part. You DID get the jamerson part right though as he was truly influential and will be remembered LONG after kanye has been forgotten or at least when he isn't relevant anymore (which shouldn't be long given how long rap/hip-hop careers end to last). And I don't play sweet home alabama thank you very much. I'm sure that was a knock on me in some way ;) but I won't bother with a retort. Have a good day sir :bassist:
 
why do these hiphoppers insist on blasting this stuff at top volume so that we all can listen too, what are they trying to prove? How about a little respect for the rest of us like they always claim they're deserving of, F*ck that sh*t ! I'd like to pop an F'n cap in there F'n stereo.

Are you suggesting that such behaviour is exclusive to hip-hop fans, or that all hip-hop fans are inconsiderate where others are concerned when it comes to their listening habits? You'd be wrong on both counts.

For anyone actually interested in broadening their knowledge where the culture and history of hip-hop are concerned you might want to check out the following books:

- "Can't Stop Won't Stop" by Jeff Chang.
- "Rap Attack" by David Toop
- "Hip Hop Matters" by Craig Watkins
- "Microphone Fiends" by Tricia Rose

The documentary film "Scratch" is also a fascinating look at DJing and "Style Wars" documents hip-hop in New York during the early 80s.

Speaking of DJs, I thought this one was kind of fun:
 
12) Not sure why you continue to bring up "producers" and "clever rappers" in a discussion about kayne...

He is one of the most prominent producers around, and quite clever with his wordplay. Check out rapgenius.com which breaks down songs line-by-line, I was astounded at the depth of metaphor in a lot of songs, much more than just the superficial meaning.