Kick drum through my bass amp?

[MDBass]

OP here.

Thanks for all the responses. There is a lot of good info here. I'll ask further questions on some of the answers but some additional general info for now.

This is not a contentious or confrontational situation with the sound guy. He does a good job for us for very little compensation. He make the singers sound better which make them happy and that makes the band sound better which makes me happy. I have a good working relationship with the sound guy, if I tell the him I'm not comfortable with the bass drum going through my rig - which is my 1st thought - it would be fine. He wouldn't push the idea and we'd still be friends.

The sound guy is just thinking of ways to improve the sound without addition cash outlay and load in/out time and effort. I don't fault him for that. Ultimately it may not be the best solution but it shows he's thinking about it.

The drummer has a strong enough foot but we noticed when playing outdoors on a dock last summer that the drums don't carry as far as the rest of the music. All indoor bar shows are fine, outdoors on the dock we lose some drums. For this exact reason I play a larger rig outdoors than inside. Inside is a Mesa walkabout 300 watt head into 2 1x12s Outdoors is a Eden WT800 bridged mono into an Mesa powerhouse 4x10.

The drummer and/or sound guy have already purchased drum mics and a small mixer for the drums. The idea is to put the drum mics through the dedicated drum mixer line out into the main board.

I did a quick google search and found a representative 15" powered Yamaha sub for about $800 and 85 pounds. I don't think we should go less than 15" but the weight and price is a bit hefty.

I do like the idea and I will suggest we try putting the drums, including the bass drum through the main PA without subs to see how that works out and go from there.

If we so go sub I like the idea of getting one with a built in crossover and running the main output from the PA to sub and then the sub xover output to the mains. Since the mains are not powered I'm guessing in this case the sub would have to be unpowered as well?

Thanks again.

Dig the measured response, though I'm sure some folks here will be upset that no one is getting fired

If the goal is to hear the kick better, putting it through the PA tops will work just fine and not get in the way of the vocals at all; if the goal is to feel the kick, a powered sub is what you need.

The best budget option is the Eurolive: The Best PA Subwoofers - Powered & Passive - 2018 | Gearank

 

[selowitch]

Fugedaboudit.
A bass amp is for bass guitars, upright basses, or maybe keyboards, never for something like a kick drum.

 

[Downunderwonder]

I like the idea of a sub with a built in crossover. Can you recommend any. I'm thinking if we did use a sub since with a built in crossover it would have to be an unpowered sub?

Ultimately the sound guy does want to run the bass through the PA as well, so this may end up being the way we go.

Subs with onboard crossover are usually powered as the crossover is done at line level not speaker level.

Signal from mixer goes to sub which amps the lows and sends on the highs for whatever is amplifying those.

If passive sub you need amp for it and a rack crossover.

 

[tfer]

If you ignore the signal level I'd agree. But that is not how things work. Are you saying that no matter what a drum signal that you send to a bass amp will be larger than any bass signal you could send?





Amplify those whacks at 90dB. Why 90? Because there seems to be a general consensus on the size of what will go to the amp. Despite the fact that it's only an assumption. At least I stated one.

How many live rigs couldn't handle that?

If I was forced to use my rig in this situation, I’d slap a hard limiter on it, with zero attack time. And I’d demand that I be in charge of the ceiling.

 

[ballynally]

Power ratings are thermal only: you can easily reach mechanical speaker damage/failure with "safe" wattage depending on the speakers' xmax and EQ settings.

most speaker manufacturers do 2 tests: thermal and excursion.Although the thermal rating is seen as the most significant for the power rating, the excursion coupled with the eq spectrum is also important (like you said)
Higher watt speakers usually have higher capacities to transfer low frequencies but not always.That depends on how the speaker is voiced.For instance: the Eminence Delta has a higher rating than the Beta but has almost the same low frequency response.

To answer the OP: there is no certainty whether the speaker will or won't hold up.It all depends on both volume and eq settings.
I would be more worried if the amp/speaker was used by the keyboard player than used for the kick considering the thermal rating.Speaker tests are done by a continuous signal over a length of time..
I am not a fan of putting kick into low powered PA speakers.
With some compression and vol/eq control it should be fine to use a bass guitar speaker under certain circumstances.

 

[gitfiddl]

OP here.
I do like the idea and I will suggest we try putting the drums, including the bass drum through the main PA without subs to see how that works out and go from there.

If we so go sub I like the idea of getting one with a built in crossover and running the main output from the PA to sub and then the sub xover output to the mains. Since the mains are not powered I'm guessing in this case the sub would have to be unpowered as well?

Thanks again.

Just curious. What do y'all have for a powered mixer and mains? Can you be a little more specific?

 

[Brad Johnson]

If I was forced to use my rig in this situation, I’d slap a hard limiter on it, with zero attack time. And I’d demand that I be in charge of the ceiling.

The OP wasn't forced. It was a question.

 

[tfer]

The OP wasn't forced. It was a question.

I understand that.

Mine is a hypothetical.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Fugedaboudit.
A bass amp is for bass guitars, upright basses, or maybe keyboards, never for something like a kick drum.

My rIg will easily handle keyboards.

 

[Brad Johnson]

I understand that.

Mine is a hypothetical.

Understood. Putting kick through doesn't mean it has to be cranked.

 

[tfer]

Understood. Putting kick through doesn't mean it has to be cranked.

If it’s not mixed to a level commensurate with the level of the bass, then what’s the point?

 

[mesaplayer83]

If it’s not mixed to a level commensurate with the level of the bass, then what’s the point?

Brad likes to argue endlessly - why bother?

 

[tfer]

Brad likes to argue endlessly - why bother?

Debate is healthy.

Perhaps he has a POV that I haven’t considered...? I’m always willing to discuss different perspectives as long as it remains respectful.

So far, he’s done nothing but ask me to defend my opinion - I’ve got no problem with that.

 

[mesaplayer83]

Debate is healthy.

Perhaps he has a POV that I haven’t considered...? I’m always willing to discuss different perspectives as long as it remains respectful.

So far, he’s done nothing but ask me to defend my opinion - I’ve got no problem with that.

Whatever works for you, although I've seen this rabbit hole before, lol...

 

[4Mal]

Funny thing to me is that my old rig doubled as the sub in a drum monitor for some fairly loud sound company shows. In my band we run K12’s on sticks with a decent digital mixer. The kick and bass are in there all the time. Like 100%. If it needs to be loud, we’ll add a sub, or two.

Today my ‘rig’ is another K12. They are good down to 60 and the on board dap pretty much prevents them from lunching themselves. My rig is a monitor with bass and acoustic guitar, sometimes kick and snare. Driven of an aux mix that I have control of. Generally it is facing forward behind me on it’s side, the floor monitor position. I love it. If there is kick in it, monitor placement can be problematic or you get low end feed back.

Granted in my band, we are geared for it. We also maintain a reasonable stage volume and let the PA do the heavy lifting. As Sound guy and bass player, mixing from stage, this works for me.

IMO - The OP’s band needs to invest in real gear -or pay the sound guy / company enough that he can justify bringing a real system...

 

[Brad Johnson]

If it’s not mixed to a level commensurate with the level of the bass, then what’s the point?

Fill.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Debate is healthy.

Perhaps he has a POV that I haven’t considered...? I’m always willing to discuss different perspectives as long as it remains respectful.

So far, he’s done nothing but ask me to defend my opinion - I’ve got no problem with that.

Thank you. You're the exception in conversations like this.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Funny thing to me is that my old rig doubled as the sub in a drum monitor for some fairly loud sound company shows. In my band we run K12’s on sticks with a decent digital mixer. The kick and bass are in there all the time. Like 100%. If it needs to be loud, we’ll add a sub, or two.

Today my ‘rig’ is another K12. They are good down to 60 and the on board dap pretty much prevents them from lunching themselves. My rig is a monitor with bass and acoustic guitar, sometimes kick and snare. Driven of an aux mix that I have control of. Generally it is facing forward behind me on it’s side, the floor monitor position. I love it. If there is kick in it, monitor placement can be problematic or you get low end feed back.

Granted in my band, we are geared for it. We also maintain a reasonable stage volume and let the PA do the heavy lifting. As Sound guy and bass player, mixing from stage, this works for me.

IMO - The OP’s band needs to invest in real gear -or pay the sound guy / company enough that he can justify bringing a real system...

This. There are many ways to gig.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Brad likes to argue endlessly - why bother?

Don't worry, I know it's just me and a kick will make any bass rig blowed up. I still can't go along to get along.

 

[tfer]

Fill.

This issue, AFAIK, is that the kick can’t be heard outdoors. That requires more than fill.

That requires the bass rig to substitute for a dedicated PA for the kick.