Learning Chords Vs. Scales for beginners

[1958Bassman]

Actually chord tones and scale tones are based on the harmonic series of oscillation of a plucked string or column of air, physics/acoustics. If you divide a string into equal length segments, it will oscillate at different frequencies. Divide it in half and you get an octave (your 12th fret harmonic). Divide it into thirds you get a fifth. Four equal segments, a root again. Five equal segments you get the major 3rd. If you continue to divide the string into smaller equal length segments you will get the rest of the 12 notes that are the basis for western music. Note that the root, fifth and major 3rd come up first, they are the most prominent. It is not a coincidence that major chords are built from these 3 notes or that those 3 notes sound good together. The chords and scales we use are based on the physics and the physics points to the chord tones having more importance than the other scale tones.

Yes, I understand how notes are produced but that has absolutely nothing to do with the topic. Until equal tempered tuning came about, the intervals didn't sound good but they were accurate.

 

[1958Bassman]

I'm glad I'm not alone because the double accidentals tend to throw me off until I learn the music thoroughly.

Your correct on key signatures note repeating notes, such as the case in the F# major which has a E# which is the enharmonic equivalent to F but their is already a F ( in the sharp form) in the key signature.

The main question is why have enharmonic key signatures since the only difference is one is in a # key and the other is in a b key? is it just to complete the cycle of 5ths?

I was taught that one enharmonic equivalent was used when going up the scale and the other is used when going down the scale.

 

[GeoffT]

Yes, I understand how notes are produced but that has absolutely nothing to do with the topic. Until equal tempered tuning came about, the intervals didn't sound good but they were accurate.

You said that chords come from scales, while that may be how we describe them and learn to build them, it doesn't mean that is where they come from. We built our system of music based on how the notes work when they are used together and that is mostly influenced by the physical process of how the notes are created. All the notes we use and all the chords and scales come from the same place, the physical way with that strings or columns of air produce and transmit sound waves, which can be described with the overtone series.

I went into detail about the overtone series to illustrate that the Major chord, which is the basis for most Western music, consists of the root and the 2 overtones that show up first and with the greatest frequency in the series. The Major chord does not come from a scale it comes directly from the physical process behind how the notes are created and transmitted.

 

[bigboy_78]

Yeah man and meat doesn't come from cows it comes from the sun via photosythesis of the grass........

 

[MustacheJoeII]

I think the real question is: Do you want to just play bass in a band, or do you want to learn music? I'm not judging, I just need to know if this a somewhat serious thing, or if you just want to have fun with your buddies that play guitar (not that both can't be done). If you just want to have a good time, let your guitar playing buddies show you how.

Now, onto my opinion of the subject.

Chords are derived from scales. The one, three and five of a chord are the scale tones based on the diatonic relation to the key. I don't think that anyone is advocating not learning how to read chords when learning scales first, it's just that going straight to chords without learning how they're constructed is like trying to walk without crawling. You need to know scale tones, diatonics, chords, forms, intervals (which is basically what both scales and chords are, patterns of intervals), and so much more to play music. That being said, it seems that the "learn chords" people are saying, "skip the scales, they're stupid, and Carol Kaye thinks that they sound bad." The "learns scales first" people are saying, "it's all connected and the scales are the building blocks of everything else you're going to learn in music."

You'd be surprised by the amount of erroneous music theory out there. Listening to people talk about how A# is the seventh in the key of B# major gets really annoying (Firstly, even if there was such a key as B#, the seventh would actually be A##). Jim Peterik wrote a book on songwriting and he gets on his music theory high-horse and says **** like the I chord of a key is the "dominant." Dominant is the V, jackass, "tonic" is the I. Or, that the third chord tone of an Db major chord is E#. But hey, what do I know, he wrote "Eye of the Tiger" and I just went to college for this ****.

Also, someone got all uppity about how knowing your scales won't help you play an Am7b9b5 chord. An Am7b9b5 is actually an a-half-diminished-nine chord (I don't know how to make the half-diminished sign on a text program, so I just wrote it out).

I have my opinion on pedagogy and how I do things, and it works for me. Carol Kaye certainly knows her stuff, and she can do what she wants, I just don't like it, and choose not to prescribe it to others. It's similar to the Suzuki Method, where you learn to play by rote, and learn what it actually means later.

There is no greater joy for me than playing in a band with guys who really know music. When I have some guitar player that can't read music tell me I need to emphasis the A# in this Am7b9b5 chord, I just shut my mouth and think, "this why I'm getting paid more than you." And it's all because I know my scales.

 

[Marty Forrer]

For what its worth..... I played rock for fifteen years completely oblivious to scales etc. If it sounded good, it was good. Then I took up double bass, went to music school where I was taught the Grove method of learning theory. I practised diligently, got an excellent private teacher, and started playing with jazz trios/quartets, some of them extremely well respected musicians. And you know what? They wanted me to play root, third, fifth, maybe seventh, and the appropriate passing notes. If I played anything outside of that I could sense the disapproval. THEY WANTED THE CHORDS OUTLINED! They didn't want me playing harmony, that was their job. They wanted the foundation to do their own building on.
Of course, when it was time to solo I could do what I wanted, and I certainly dont regret any of my theory studies, but basically I could have played what the jazz heads wanted without learning all the theory.

 

[bassbully]

For what its worth..... I played rock for fifteen years completely oblivious to scales etc. If it sounded good, it was good. Then I took up double bass, went to music school where I was taught the Grove method of learning theory. I practised diligently, got an excellent private teacher, and started playing with jazz trios/quartets, some of them extremely well respected musicians. And you know what? They wanted me to play root, third, fifth, maybe seventh, and the appropriate passing notes. If I played anything outside of that I could sense the disapproval. THEY WANTED THE CHORDS OUTLINED! They didn't want me playing harmony, that was their job. They wanted the foundation to do their own building on.
Of course, when it was time to solo I could do what I wanted, and I certainly dont regret any of my theory studies, but basically I could have played what the jazz heads wanted without learning all the theory.

And I Thank You! This is my approach to bass and always will be. Learn the notes on the fretboard, learn to play w/drummer in the pocket and to outline/color the chords of the song. This is the role of any bass player in most music not all (there is some weird stuff )but most.
The other instruments play harmony not bass! If You want to do that play horns, guitar, keys etc. Bass is a foundation piece , live it and learn it that way. Nobody leads and solos on bass unless its a fill thing or to color a song. This is why chords and studing chords is #1 to me and all I think you need to know...scales ok, but not needed as much as chords to be a good bassist.

 

[younggun]

And I Thank You! This is my approach to bass and always will be. Learn the notes on the fretboard, learn to play w/drummer in the pocket and to outline/color the chords of the song. This is the role of any bass player in most music not all (there is some weird stuff )but most.
The other instruments play harmony not bass! If You want to do that play horns, guitar, keys etc. Bass is a foundation piece , live it and learn it that way. Nobody leads and solos on bass unless its a fill thing or to color a song. This is why chords and studing chords is #1 to me and all I think you need to know...scales ok, but not needed as much as chords to be a good bassist.

This is such a limiting and short sighted thought process. I'm so glad that Mingus, Patitucci, Wooten, Miller, Jaco, and many many other bass musicians that produced such great music, didn't think this way. There are players, and then there are musicians. They are not the same thing. All players should strive to be musicians. This means learning everything you can about theory and music, including harmonic theory.

Nobody leads and solos on bass unless its a fill thing or to color a song. This is why chords and studing chords is #1 to me and all I think you need to know...

This is absolutely the worst advice I've ever heard on these forums. If you think that all that bass musicians who solo do, is occasionally fill or color a song, then you desperately need to expand your listening horizons.

Think of the possibilities that you limit yourself to by only learning part of music theory....or maybe its impossible to consider those possibilities. By limiting your knowledge base you are leaving many doors closed that you aren't even aware of yet.
Telling someone all they need to know is chords is a fallacy. You are encouraging a beginner to limit himself. Hopefully he doesn't chose that easy way out and do so.

Again, learn everything you can about music, and strive to be the most complete and knowledgeable musician you can.

 

[MalcolmAmos]

Yeah man and meat doesn't come from cows it comes from the sun via photosythesis of the grass........

And the grass is eaten by a cow, and then the eaten grass becomes fertilizers and some of the grass seeds that have gone through intact sprout and are eaten by another cow, and the process starts over again.

 

[vishalicious]

Thanks again, JTE, for taking the time to explain all of this.

Expanding this, especially point 1, is the crux of the recent discussions. When I say "Learn the major scale and how it's constructed", I do NOT mean "be able to wiggle your fingers to the right spots to play a major scale". For this, "knowing" the major scale means:
A. You know its construction- W W H W W W H
B. You know how to determine the correct notes (with the correct enharmonics- it DOES matter) for the scale in any key. That is, you know how to figure out that A major is A B C# D E F# G# A, and you know WHY it's F# and not Gb.
C. You know what it sounds like.
D. You can find the notes for it and play it across the neck starting in any position (not necessarily starting on the root- this is vital for actually playing music instead of playing scales), and you can find the correct notes and figure out a fingering across at least two whole octaves to get from the first fret to the 12th.

Only then do you KNOW the scale. And the diatonic major scale is the first one to learn like this. In fact, you could a long way with that being the only one you know.

Ok. I think I'm on the right track with this, but I'm at the very start. I know a few patterns to play the major scale, and I number the notes when I play them (1-8). Because of this, I know where 1, 3 and 5 are, so it helps me to identify the right notes for a triad, and for a 7th and the octave. For me, right now, this is the bridge between scales and chords.

A - I do know the construction pattern of whole and half-steps. It actually falls in line with the patterns that I've been practicing, so I hope that this is the right way to bind the physical playing with the mental awareness of why I'm reaching for particular points on the fretboard.

B - Physically, I think I'm doing this. I practice scales backward and forward... I haven't done any starting from the middle yet, but I'll try to mix it up and see how much it throws me off.

A problem for me here is that I don't know the notes by name yet. I can figure them out when I'm playing, but I need to start on an open string, or on the 12th fret and count out note names right now to know what note I'm playing when I hold any given fret. Once I have that root note, I'm able to (somewhat slowly) name the other notes in the scale though.

I do know a little about enharmonic equivalents... that's when a note has one name going up the fretboard or scale and another name going down. Its generally the sharps and flats, from what I understand, but I've seen (from discussions on TalkBass) that later on, there are other rules that complicate this. I don't have a grasp on those yet.

C - I'm working on. I can tell what a scale sounds like, and I can tell what a triad sounds like, but if you just pick a note in a scale (or anywhere on the bass for that matter) and play it, I can't identify it yet. If I hunt around, I can find the same note, but it takes some experimenting still.

D - I still rely on the patterns for this. I'm not sure if I'm able to start in the middle of a scale and play the rest either backward or forward, because I haven't tried. I'll do that though. I've also not learned how to play any of them for more than one octave. I think I can figure that out if I sit down and just apply WWHWWWH to whatever note I end on and see if I can recognize any patterns from it. I'll try that as well (and then look around on line and in my books to see how far off I am).

For point 2 (Learn how basic chords are built from the major scale- e.g Major is 1,3,5, minor is 1,b3, 5, etc.). This is covered in any basic harmony book. The goal is to be able to figure out for yourself (that is, no book or chart or diagram) the notes to the main types of chords. I think you should at least be able to spell out:
A. Triads- major, minor, diminished, augmented
B. 7th chords- Major 7, Dominant 7, Minor 7, Minor 7b5 (a/k/a "half-diminished"), and diminished.
In order to be able to do this for any chord, you need to know the correct notes in the major scale. So, instead of trying to memorize that an Abmin7 is Ab Cb Eb Gb, just build your knowledge- You know that the major scale is W W H W W W H. Start on Ab (the root) so the whole step is Bb, the next whole step is C (the third), half-step to Db, whole to Eb (the fifth), whole to F, whole to G (the 7). And from knowing that a minor 7 is 1, b3, 5, b7, you pull Ab, Cb (not B), Db, and Gb.

I think I understand how chords are built for the major and minor scales. I've been practicing triads and sometimes 5ths and 7ths (or 5ths with octave, which I like the sound of better than 7th right now) directly after practicing scales. This is mostly for muscle memory.

A - I can identify the right frets, physically, but it takes me a few seconds to name the notes, and, I need to know the root to do it. I can play major and minor chords, but I've not practiced augmented or diminished yet. I saw them in Bass Guitar for Dummies, but I didn't want to go there until I felt that the first 2 were locked into my head.

B - Like above, I can do 7ths for the major and minor, but haven't approached the others yet. I think that I'm going to have to learn the augmented and diminished patterns and their sound before I try. I don't want to confuse them with the major or minor.

For the rest here, I'm still working on identifying the notes on the fretboard.

3. Learn the Harmonized scale- write out the scale on paper. Using C as the example, you'll get:
C D E F G A B C

I'm not up to this point yet, but now I do seem to have a roadmap to follow. I've actually not heard of the Harmonized scale until now. I'll read up on that later.

And a lot of this is stuff you can do on the bus, during pointless meetings, and in your head when your wife is telling you about those new shoes....

I can tell this is real-world experience... I actually do this, and she knows when I've zoned out. She breaks my focus when she starts talking about food though.

I'm going to work on the above so that I can get to the rest of what you said... this is a lot of material, and its only the first 3 points.

That's enough of the 8 points for now, but I want to leave you with this too.

SING everything you play. Playing music is about sound, not physical location. If you sing everything you practice (even if you sing like me- a friend described my vocal ability as "a duet with Yoko Ono and Linda McCartney") then every move your fingers make has a sound associated with it. So when you hear that Amin arpeggio in "Badge" your ear tells your fingers what it might be. So when you hear something similar in another song, you have a head start on finding it.

John

I'll try this... I get a bit self-conscious though, so it probably won't be a regular practice for a while. And, sorry to everyone else. I didn't realize how lengthy that reply was until I saw the preview.

 

[u84six]

LOL of course he could play scales..anyone can, what he didn't know what what part of the scale to use, seems he was taught or learned wrong as well.
He probably started his scale on the root and played eight notes, scales are way way more than that, in essence scales have keys and with in those keys are chords. If anyone was just to learn all the chords known, all they would have is a bunch of chords, in the same way anyone that learns all the scales does. What they don't have is the understanding or the connection between the two. We have to remember bass has a sonic presence as well, so outlining chords is not always its job or an option. I have seen some great jazz bass players that have amazing skills and knowledge, yet at a jam couldn't play a Stones song to save themselves.....as you say horses for courses and what ever works.

Sorry, but I have to disagree with this. Saying that if someone learns chords then all they know is bunch of chords is almost being hypocritical to your own approach about scales. There's more to chords than just a bunch of stacked tones. In fact, learning chord tones and following standard progressions will actually make it much easier to understand keys and scales, while actually playing along with other musicians. Knowing scales first will make you totally useless if you want to play along with anyone. Playing with other musicians in itself will teach you way more than what you can teach yourself alone.

 

[u84six]

This is such a limiting and short sighted thought process. I'm so glad that Mingus, Patitucci, Wooten, Miller, Jaco, and many many other bass musicians that produced such great music, didn't think this way. There are players, and then there are musicians. They are not the same thing. All players should strive to be musicians. This means learning everything you can about theory and music, including harmonic theory.



This is absolutely the worst advice I've ever heard on these forums. If you think that all that bass musicians who solo do, is occasionally fill or color a song, then you desperately need to expand your listening horizons.

Think of the possibilities that you limit yourself to by only learning part of music theory....or maybe its impossible to consider those possibilities. By limiting your knowledge base you are leaving many doors closed that you aren't even aware of yet.
Telling someone all they need to know is chords is a fallacy. You are encouraging a beginner to limit himself. Hopefully he doesn't chose that easy way out and do so.

Again, learn everything you can about music, and strive to be the most complete and knowledgeable musician you can.

Some of what you said I can agree with, but most I cannot. Remember, songs came before theory. i.e. if it sounds good, that's what you play. Right? Do you really think that early on, people sat down and learned their scales before producing music? Good luck answering that question.

 

[FretlessMainly]

The other instruments play harmony not bass!

If all art did was follow strict rules, it wouldn't really be art, would it?

I don't deny that a primary function of the bass is to provide a foundation for the music, but to take such a hard-line stance on avoiding harmony on bass is to suggest that bassists like Paul McCartney, Phil Lesh, and John Wetton, just to name a few, were doing it all wrong.

 

[Fergie Fulton]

Sorry, but I have to disagree with this. Saying that if someone learns chords then all they know is bunch of chords is almost being hypocritical to your own approach about scales. There's more to chords than just a bunch of stacked tones. In fact, learning chord tones and following standard progressions will actually make it much easier to understand keys and scales, while actually playing along with other musicians. Knowing scales first will make you totally useless if you want to play along with anyone. Playing with other musicians in itself will teach you way more than what you can teach yourself alone.

LOL read again what i say, then look at what you say and work out the irony of what you write.
In being hypocritial i would have to say something and do the opposite, which i didn't, all i did was use your point back to you to counter the very point you raise now. In any teaching i have ever done i have taught scales first, more importantly how they are constructed, then all the great stuff that comes from it.
So whether it is a bunch of chords or a bunch of scales, if you don't understand how to use them they are useless.

We are allowed to disagree..horses for courses and all that, but we seem to be agreeing on the teaching, even though you contradict some of your own points.

 

[younggun]

Some of what you said I can agree with, but most I cannot. Remember, songs came before theory. i.e. if it sounds good, that's what you play. Right? Do you really think that early on, people sat down and learned their scales before producing music? Good luck answering that question.

I will answer that question.
I understand where you're going, but it isn't germane to this discussion. You're getting into discussion about creativity, NOT learning modern theory of music. The first shelters humans built were probably made of sticks and mud, and I'm sure they were functional, but that didn't make those humans engineers....modern building engineers don't learn how to mix water and dirt then wrap it around sticks now-days do they?

Things have evolve quite a bit since the first buildings were made, and the same is true of music. If all someone wanted to do was make some pleasing sounds, then by all means, take out your instrument and tinker away at a melody. But to make that the equivalent of what a musician does, is as erroneous as saying someone who pitches a tent is in the same league as someone who builds skyscrapers. We are talking about the tools one needs to learn in order to unlock full creative potential, and ultimately that's what music theory is there for. With a full toolbox at our disposal its much easier to create AND be able to play with others using the same tools and materials.
Again, I'd like to point out that modern bass musicians (like Wooten, Miller, Manring, Caron, Gwizdala etc.) are also masters of the theory, technique and craft that unlocks their potential. Those are the people to look to and aim to emulate.

 

[bassbully]

This is absolutely the worst advice I've ever heard on these forums. If you think that all that bass musicians who solo do, is occasionally fill or color a song, then you desperately need to expand your listening horizons.

Think of the possibilities that you limit yourself to by only learning part of music theory....or maybe its impossible to consider those possibilities. By limiting your knowledge base you are leaving many doors closed that you aren't even aware of yet.
Telling someone all they need to know is chords is a fallacy. You are encouraging a beginner to limit himself. Hopefully he doesn't chose that easy way out and do so.

Again, learn everything you can about music, and strive to be the most complete and knowledgeable musician you can.

Worse advice ever on this forum YES! do I win a prize? look you can worship all those wanking bass hero's all you want and I like a bit ..Ok, just Victor, who told me to my face and even signed his pick to me "keep it simple" He said all of the type of bass playing he does is not what most bands, band leaders and producers etc want .They want a foundation player who serves the song,plays the songs chords and structure.That came from the man.
Most folk don't even know what a bassist really does in a band but they can sing a guitar solo..why?

Dude, learn what you want to learn but there are plenty of us on here that do fine being plowsman outlining the songs chords and laying it down. We know scales but nobody has ever said to me "Hey play this scale over this part of a song here..never.
Don't force your way cuz it might not be right. Check out the youtube vid on this thread from another famous bassist Carol Kaye and what she say's on chords vs scales.
I was agreeing with a post I quoted...go back and read it yourself. Don't be a TFW (theory flag waver) those dudes are stuffy and like to look down on all who don't agree on their ways and the feel music should only be done..OH wait! too late you are one

 

[Mike 257]

OMG .... OP did you get your answer ? this thread Sucks !

 

[younggun]

Worse advice ever on this forum YES! do I win a prize? look you can worship all those wanking bass hero's all you want and I like a bit ..Ok, just Victor, who told me to my face and even signed his pick to me "keep it simple" He said all of the type of bass playing he does is not what most bands, band leaders and producers etc want .They want a foundation player who serves the song,plays the songs chords and structure.That came from the man.
Most folk don't even know what a bassist really does in a band but they can sing a guitar solo..why?

Dude, learn what you want to learn but there are plenty of us on here that do fine being plowsman outlining the songs chords and laying it down. We know scales but nobody has ever said to me "Hey play this scale over this part of a song here..never.
Don't force your way cuz it might not be right. Check out the youtube vid on this thread from another famous bassist Carol Kaye and what she say's on chords vs scales.
I was agreeing with a post I quoted...go back and read it yourself. Don't be a TFW (theory flag waver) those dudes are stuffy and like to look down on all who don't agree on their ways and the feel music should only be done..OH wait! too late you are one

Bass musicians universally recognized for their skill and artistry are "wankers"? I probably shouldn't be surprised at that opinion, but somehow I am.

Thanks for posting all that though. Seriously. Before, someone might have actually taken your "advice" as meaningful, but by you weighing in on the importance of staying ignorant and shortsighted, it will hopefully dissuade them from further doing so (good job with the ad hominem at the end too, that really goes a long way to legitimizing your points).

 

[fourstringburn]

Can't believe this thread is still going. As I said earlier, you guys are confusing what you should learn and what you should play, there is a big difference. Learn as much as you can not what you only want to.

As for the Carol Kaye references...I would bet anything she knows her scales as good as the chords. I find that to be counter-conducive to the learning process not to learn scales along with chords and their relationship.

I know studio musicians like Carol Kaye and others sometimes read charts that are written in nothing more than roman numerals for the chords for each measure in the song.

Basically without getting to analytically overboard, If you know your scales and chords, then when you see a roman numeral for the number 7 in the key of E major for instance, then you will know what chord to play because the number 7 refers to the 7th chord tone in the scale of that particular key, or does it?

BONUS QUIZ For the people who support learning chords only (not for you music teachers on TB to answer) WHAT CHORD DOES THE ROMAN NUMERAL 7 IN THE KEY OF E MAJOR???

 

[MustacheJoeII]

I think the message got mixed up a little, here. When I write about scales for beginners (and, I can't speak for anyone else here), I'm talking about the very basic stuff: Major, minor, harmonic minor, melodic minor. You know, the stuff that you need to know to learn chords. In other words: The scales that beginners should learn. Going all modal before you learn chords, diatonics, counterpoint, forms... that's running before you learn to walk.

Anyone here who's kept a job playing bass will tell you that you have to serve the song over all else. You can't be out in jazz space poodle land playing Black Flag numbers. But, there's no reason that you can't learn playing grooves with your band while also studying theory.

Does Mike Watt play wank bass? Maybe you think so on his solo stuff, but I guarantee you that he keeps it real damn simple when gigging with the Stooges or doing session work. Does Brian Ritchie wank on bass? What about Entwhistle? JPJ and McCartney are even worse than bass wanks, they're downright songwriter/piano players.

I certainly don't want to listen to an afro-cuban group made up of five bass players. I don't even like having two comping instruments in a single rhythm section. And, I'm not a fan of Jaco, I think he was as cheesy as muenster. But that doesn't mean that I think bassists can't be musicians. You might as well believe that drummers can't control their own volume, or that guitarist should only play bar chords.

I'll be the first person to admit that there is a good amount of lofty arrogance in music academia, but there is also a giant chip on the shoulder of rock musicians that don't have much traditional musical education.

Also, Mike 257, you're right. This thread does suck.