Learning Chords Vs. Scales for beginners

[Sav'nBass]

Here's a good explanation by Carol Kaye-
BASS PLAYER: Carol Kaye Interview - YouTube

However, as important as scales are, playing mainly scalar runs sounds like crap and if someone only plays that way, they'll never get a gig unless they own the club, lead the band and use musicians who are willing to accept this kind of playing.

This is the best post in this thread...

 

[vishalicious]

Hi All,

I'm a beginner bass player and this thread has really intrigued me. Like the OP, I have the Hal Leonard method (which I really like a lot) and some other books. I've also seen Carol Kaye's video interview snippet on Youtube a few times. For some reason, that video relaxes me, so I watch it now and again when I'm not practicing.

Anyway, what I've been doing, after first seeing this thread a few days ago, is practicing scales, as I've been doing for a little while, but afterwards, I take a short break and then practice chords based off of that scale. My hope is that it gives me the best of both worlds, along with going through the Hal Leonard book and trying to learn songs.

Does this make sense to do, because its basically what I've been doing recently:

1. Warm up with an exercise in which I move up the neck 4 frets at a time on each string.
2. Practice scales for about 10 minutes.
3. Practice chords (just triads and then 5ths and then 7ths and then 5ths with octave) for about 10 minutes.
4. Do a lesson in the Hal Leonard book (the one with all 3 books combined).
5. Practice figuring out a song (right now, its Stand By Me, because my brother-in-law is practicing that).

There are days in which I don't do #5 and just do 2-4 more, depending on how my head is. If time permits, I do 1-3 more than once during the day... when the wife isn't making me fix something.

The main question in my post is then, does it make sense to practice scales and chords at the same time?

 

[JTE]

It absolutely makes sense to see scales and chords as two bits of the same puzzle, rather than create a dichotomy. But that's because I have pretty rigid definitions of what it means to learn scales...

Now to me, spending time running a bunch of different scales is not nearly as productive and useful to a beginner compared to practicing arpeggios and learning about chords, or reasons generally clearly outlined already by others- because most music we play is essentially chordal in nature AND because if you know where the chord tones are you're very close to finding other useful passing tones quickly without having to resort to scales, modes, etc.

There's a progression to learning theory that's important to development as a bassist and I think it's this...
From an earlier post of mine (with thanks to mambo4 for creating the framework)...

---------------------------------------
THEORY PROGRESSION
---------------------------------------
Theory can seem like a quagmire to those who are starting out, and it's often difficult to know just how important a particular aspect of it is. I will say that learning how chords are built from scales is the most important aspect of theory. It is far more useful to understand chord construction than to memorize all those "Scales A and B go with chord X" formulas.

I'd say the logical progression learning music theory is this:

1.) Learn the major scale, and how it's constructed
2.) Learn how basic chords are built from the major scale- e.g Major is 1,3,5, minor is 1,b3, 5, etc.
3.) Learn how to harmonize the notes of any diatonic major scale by building chords / stacking thirds.
4.) Learn arppegios/chord tones
5.) Learn to look at common chord progressions as "numerals" (eg, I-IV-V ect) to understand how the chords relate to the song's key.
6.) Learn the Natural Minor scale (a/k/a Aeolian mode) and the dominant scale (a/k/a Mixolydian); And learn how these relate to the major scale (i.e.; its the V and vi mode)
7.) Understand how other 4 modes of the major scale are derived (less important to memorize these other modes at first)
8.) Dive back into modes for more detailed ideas about what "goes" with what chord.

Bass playing is basically a matter of knowing what to play over various chords. It may seem daunting at first, but my practical experience (bass in pop/rock) has been that I mostly use Major, Minor, and Dominant 7 related bassline patterns, usually based on chord tones and pentatonics. Even if you're playing some guitar oriented riff-rock, each riff is going to imply a chord of some kind.

"BUT HOW DO I APPLY THIS THEORY TO MY PLAYING?"
85%+ of the time, you will be going from root note to root note as the chords change. The trick is learning how to do it with a groove and feel that is stylistically appropriate to the song. The best way to reach stylistic understanding is to learn songs you like and pick them apart to see how the bassline relates to the chords. I cannot emphasize this idea enough: The answer to this common question is to LEARN AND ANALYZE BASS LINES BY THE MASTERS. Once you undertand what Jamerson (for example) did with a particular set of changes, these ideas become added to your tool set, to use, change, blend and create your own voice.

I highly recommend Edley's Music Theory for Practical People as well.
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

John

 

[bassbully]

Scales were cool when I first started but they just taught me that..scales. When I started studing chords the doors opened and it made my playing much better and I understood my role as a bassist to outline the songs chords, color them and fill tastefully. So to me learning chords is something to learn first.

 

[vishalicious]

Thanks, JTE. That was a very informative post. I have a question and a request in response to it:

Q: Isn't learning arpeggios the same as learning scales? Aren't arpeggios chords with more notes than a triad, with the notes all coming from the same scale (or do I have a misunderstanding of what an arpeggio is)?

And, if you have time, my request is, can you expand slightly on the 8 items in your list of theory progression? Like, if it were an outline, could you add a few bullets to each with some key concepts to focus on, or important points and insights that must be understood for each? I hope its not a lot to ask, and I only do because I like the structure that you've outlined and would like to explore it in a deeper manner.

I actually think that something like that could potentially become a stickied post for beginners in this forum.

 

[bassbully]

It absolutely makes sense to see scales and chords as two bits of the same puzzle, rather than create a dichotomy. But that's because I have pretty rigid definitions of what it means to learn scales...

Now to me, spending time running a bunch of different scales is not nearly as productive and useful to a beginner compared to practicing arpeggios and learning about chords, or reasons generally clearly outlined already by others- because most music we play is essentially chordal in nature AND because if you know where the chord tones are you're very close to finding other useful passing tones quickly without having to resort to scales, modes, etc.

There's a progression to learning theory that's important to development as a bassist and I think it's this...
From an earlier post of mine (with thanks to mambo4 for creating the framework)...

---------------------------------------
THEORY PROGRESSION
---------------------------------------
Theory can seem like a quagmire to those who are starting out, and it's often difficult to know just how important a particular aspect of it is. I will say that learning how chords are built from scales is the most important aspect of theory. It is far more useful to understand chord construction than to memorize all those "Scales A and B go with chord X" formulas.

I'd say the logical progression learning music theory is this:

1.) Learn the major scale, and how it's constructed
2.) Learn how basic chords are built from the major scale- e.g Major is 1,3,5, minor is 1,b3, 5, etc.
3.) Learn how to harmonize the notes of any diatonic major scale by building chords / stacking thirds.
4.) Learn arppegios/chord tones
5.) Learn to look at common chord progressions as "numerals" (eg, I-IV-V ect) to understand how the chords relate to the song's key.
6.) Learn the Natural Minor scale (a/k/a Aeolian mode) and the dominant scale (a/k/a Mixolydian); And learn how these relate to the major scale (i.e.; its the V and vi mode)
7.) Understand how other 4 modes of the major scale are derived (less important to memorize these other modes at first)
8.) Dive back into modes for more detailed ideas about what "goes" with what chord.

Bass playing is basically a matter of knowing what to play over various chords. It may seem daunting at first, but my practical experience (bass in pop/rock) has been that I mostly use Major, Minor, and Dominant 7 related bassline patterns, usually based on chord tones and pentatonics. Even if you're playing some guitar oriented riff-rock, each riff is going to imply a chord of some kind.

"BUT HOW DO I APPLY THIS THEORY TO MY PLAYING?"
85%+ of the time, you will be going from root note to root note as the chords change. The trick is learning how to do it with a groove and feel that is stylistically appropriate to the song. The best way to reach stylistic understanding is to learn songs you like and pick them apart to see how the bassline relates to the chords. I cannot emphasize this idea enough: The answer to this common question is to LEARN AND ANALYZE BASS LINES BY THE MASTERS. Once you undertand what Jamerson (for example) did with a particular set of changes, these ideas become added to your tool set, to use, change, blend and create your own voice.

I highly recommend Edley's Music Theory for Practical People as well.
[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

John

Yeah ^ Here, didnt see this before I posted but this says it oh so well IMO.

 

[JTE]

Thanks, JTE. That was a very informative post. I have a question and a request in response to it:

Q: Isn't learning arpeggios the same as learning scales? Aren't arpeggios chords with more notes than a triad, with the notes all coming from the same scale (or do I have a misunderstanding of what an arpeggio is)?

And, if you have time, my request is, can you expand slightly on the 8 items in your list of theory progression? Like, if it were an outline, could you add a few bullets to each with some key concepts to focus on, or important points and insights that must be understood for each? I hope its not a lot to ask, and I only do because I like the structure that you've outlined and would like to explore it in a deeper manner.

I actually think that something like that could potentially become a stickied post for beginners in this forum.

Don't have time right now to expand the eight points but will work on it.

Arpeggios are simply chords played one note at a time. Therefore an Amin arpeggio is A, C, E repeated across the neck. G9 is G, B, D, F, A.

John

 

[Jakeowl]

Wow.

Read the whole thing. I guess that there are several posters who know a lot about music, bass, teaching and learning. It is all 93.76 % over my head. Hope one day it isn't. Still, I picked up a little. Thanks folks.

What I do not know is what to call most of what I have learned in the past three weeks of hard work and three formal lessons from a professional music teacher.

What I DO know is that I am finally getting a little 'tuff' on my fingers.

Maybe, just maybe, at some point, what I am doing (going around this clock shaped chart of note thingys) will lead to my plunking sounding like what I hear in the blues songs I love to listen to. If not, que sera'. I am having fun anyway.

J

 

[Jayson]

Play the instrument every day. This is always most important.

From a theory standpoint, the tried and true progression is to learn scales first. It's absolutely more important to have a firm grasp on chords than it is to, say, know every scale, but the point is that chords are COMPRISED from scale degrees. If you understand scales, then understanding chords becomes as easy as assimilating parts (which you know) into a whole.

JTE gave a great rundown of what order is most conventional for a crash course in theory.

 

[u84six]

Learn chord tones before scales. Scales are useless if you don't know what notes to play when a band member is strumming a chord. It's as simple as that. I'm just starting to get back into theory again and my weakness is knowing how to play a scale, but not knowing how to quickly play chord tones of each chord in a progression.

 

[ryco]

Strive to learn both, but learn your chord tones first. You'll get more bang for your buck in being able to play with others and be able to hear more chord progression changes faster. One of the most important functions of the bass is to outline chords and lay down the harmonic foundation for the band to sit on. Mostly by laying down root movement.

But learning scales is good for passing notes between chord tones and runs.

They are two sides of the same coin really - with the "coin" being the "key".
Chords are built on thirds, scales are built in seconds (steps).
A Dm7 13 chord = D F A C E G B; the scale = D E F G A B C; same notes. Key C M (could also be A minor with extra harmonic rules)

 

[bigboy_78]

Chords.

IME Bass lines have a lot more chromatics to add groove and movement, making strict scale playing a little obsolete.

 

[Fergie Fulton]

Learn chord tones before scales. Scales are useless if you don't know what notes to play when a band member is strumming a chord. It's as simple as that. I'm just starting to get back into theory again and my weakness is knowing how to play a scale, but not knowing how to quickly play chord tones of each chord in a progression.

I'm sorry to say you were taught or learned your theory in the wrong way. To learn a scale first takes five minutes, to undersatnd it is the key. We all know and accept that playing up and down a scale is just a finger exercise, but understanding and learning are two different things. To learn a scale takes five minutes, you have the eight notes, but it takes longer to understand that you also have the seven intervals, the six inversions of the scale, its cromatic scale, its 12 note scale, its chord structure and chord structure related to it. Then there is it's melodic and harmonic use of notes and related notes and this is just the basics becuase really and truely to understand all this you have to be able to hear it. You really want to hear the quality of chords, notes and intervals by ear, you really want to be able to notate and transcribe, but this is going to another level..in other words you have to have foundations to build on.

Five minutes to learn a scale is not a big ask, because on a bass because we are tuned to fourths, one i have taught a student a C major scale, if all he applies the fingering shape anywhere on the bass he gets a new major scale with the root he has started on, so in fact he has learned learned eleven major scales if he thinks about it. That being the case then once any scale has been learned, the student has in fact learned all eleven scales available to it.

So learning and understanding are two different things but what anyone needs to known is application....how to use it for the best and that again is another level.
Learning is about ordered information that will support future information, each new piece added makes up more of the jigsaw, but each part is equal in completing the picture.

 

[bassbully]

I'm sorry to say you were taught or learned your theory in the wrong way. To learn a scale first takes five minutes, to undersatnd it is the key. We all know and accept that playing up and down a scale is just a finger exercise, but understanding and learning are two different things. To learn a scale takes five minutes, you have the eight notes, but it takes longer to understand that you also have the seven intervals, the six inversions of the scale, its cromatic scale, its 12 note scale, its chord structure and chord structure related to it. Then there is it's melodic and harmonic use of notes and related notes and this is just the basics becuase really and truely to understand all this you have to be able to hear it. You really want to hear the quality of chords, notes and intervals by ear, you really want to be able to notate and transcribe, but this is going to another level..in other words you have to have foundations to build on.

Five minutes to learn a scale is not a big ask, because on a bass because we are tuned to fourths, one i have taught a student a C major scale, if all he applies the fingering shape anywhere on the bass he gets a new major scale with the root he has started on, so in fact he has learned learned eleven major scales if he thinks about it. That being the case then once any scale has been learned, the student has in fact learned all eleven scales available to it.

So learning and understanding are two different things but what anyone needs to known is application....how to use it for the best and that again is another level.
Learning is about ordered information that will support future information, each new piece added makes up more of the jigsaw, but each part is equal in completing the picture.

Eh..maybe for you that is. All I know is what works for me and what others said works for them and its chords for me. I was working with a kid once who showed me he was working on some scales and he knew them ok. He asked me to do some simple blues patterns etc and I showed him. When he tried and wasnt doing so well as I called out the chords and told him to play the four the five and then aked him where the third of the chord was, he looked at me like I was from mars.
He could play scales but had no idea what a chord was and how it was made up...how they were constructed. Once I showed him my simple way and with his scale knowledge he was a happy camper. Since we bassists are all about the chord and playing on and off them and music all is based on them its chords for me.

 

[Fergie Fulton]

Eh..maybe for you that is. All I know is what works for me and what others said works for them and its chords for me. I was working with a kid once who showed me he was working on some scales and he knew them ok. He asked me to do some simple blues patterns etc and I showed him. When he tried and wasnt doing so well as I called out the chords and told him to play the four the five and then aked him where the third of the chord was, he looked at me like I was from mars.
He could play scales but had no idea what a chord was and how it was made up...how they were constructed. Once I showed him my simple way and with his scale knowledge he was a happy camper. Since we bassists are all about the chord and playing on and off them and music all is based on them its chords for me.

LOL of course he could play scales..anyone can, what he didn't know what what part of the scale to use, seems he was taught or learned wrong as well.
He probably started his scale on the root and played eight notes, scales are way way more than that, in essence scales have keys and with in those keys are chords. If anyone was just to learn all the chords known, all they would have is a bunch of chords, in the same way anyone that learns all the scales does. What they don't have is the understanding or the connection between the two. We have to remember bass has a sonic presence as well, so outlining chords is not always its job or an option. I have seen some great jazz bass players that have amazing skills and knowledge, yet at a jam couldn't play a Stones song to save themselves.....as you say horses for courses and what ever works.

 

[hublocker]

"Learn scales and theory but spend your time practicing and mastering chords and groove."

What he said. But what do I know? I've only been playing bass since 1976.

Seriously though; you'll need to know all the scales. But you'll be playing chords. Learning a few basic patterns for major and minor scales is good, but when you get to playing with other people you'll be playing the chord tones.

 

[younggun]

Ignore all these arguments about which way is better. I think its pretty obvious by all the above posts that BOTH ways will garner results (emphasis on learning scales vs. chords).

What's most important as a beginner, is that you practice a methodical PROGRESSIVE system. Doesn't matter what the system is based on (scales, chords, intervals, etc.), you'll arrive at all of it in good time as long as you start with fundamentals that progressively build.
The danger for most beginners, particularly those without a teacher, is the tendency to want instant results, and so they bounce around between all kinds of concepts without having a method. Practicing a little of this and a little of that, and mastering none of it. Find a method and stick with it for a while.

Oh, and get a teacher.

 

[Snarf]

Hi,

I'm trying to figure out which rout to start with, as a complete beginner (not reading music yet and only self-study at this point in time). I looked in some beginner books (Hal Leonard, Bass for Dummies, etc.) and it seems that a lot of it go the Scales way as a major method.

I've been also reading Carol Kaye's web site (lots of respect here) and it seems that she's more into Chords first, as the most important ground work. I looked into getting the Bass DVD for beginners as a starter, but would not like to spread out over too much material now (...time is an issue) .

Now, can you please explain a bit what's with each method, your opinion about starting with one vs. the other, etc.

Your input is very much appreciated.
thanks,
b

Learn both concurrently. But if I were forced to say one first then the other, learn the chords first. Most bass lines are based on chord tones. Triads in root position first, then all inversions, then 7th chords.

 

[JimmyM]

I would skip the groove stuff and just learn chords. "Groove" is a nebulous term that basically means "play in time with conviction." If you learn to play in time and play it like you mean it, you will groove.

And I am definitely into chords over scales, but I will admit that you need to know scales to understand the relationship between the notes of the chords. But if you play scales on a gig, you will bore everyone to death.

 

[JTE]

Thanks, JTE. That was a very informative post. I have a question and a request in response to it:

Q: Isn't learning arpeggios the same as learning scales? Aren't arpeggios chords with more notes than a triad, with the notes all coming from the same scale (or do I have a misunderstanding of what an arpeggio is)?

And, if you have time, my request is, can you expand slightly on the 8 items in your list of theory progression? Like, if it were an outline, could you add a few bullets to each with some key concepts to focus on, or important points and insights that must be understood for each? I hope its not a lot to ask, and I only do because I like the structure that you've outlined and would like to explore it in a deeper manner.

I actually think that something like that could potentially become a stickied post for beginners in this forum.

Expanding this, especially point 1, is the crux of the recent discussions. When I say "Learn the major scale and how it's constructed", I do NOT mean "be able to wiggle your fingers to the right spots to play a major scale". For this, "knowing" the major scale means:
A. You know its construction- W W H W W W H
B. You know how to determine the correct notes (with the correct enharmonics- it DOES matter) for the scale in any key. That is, you know how to figure out that A major is A B C# D E F# G# A, and you know WHY it's F# and not Gb.
C. You know what it sounds like.
D. You can find the notes for it and play it across the neck starting in any position (not necessarily starting on the root- this is vital for actually playing music instead of playing scales), and you can find the correct notes and figure out a fingering across at least two whole octaves to get from the first fret to the 12th.

Only then do you KNOW the scale. And the diatonic major scale is the first one to learn like this. In fact, you could a long way with that being the only one you know.

For point 2 (Learn how basic chords are built from the major scale- e.g Major is 1,3,5, minor is 1,b3, 5, etc.). This is covered in any basic harmony book. The goal is to be able to figure out for yourself (that is, no book or chart or diagram) the notes to the main types of chords. I think you should at least be able to spell out:
A. Triads- major, minor, diminished, augmented
B. 7th chords- Major 7, Dominant 7, Minor 7, Minor 7b5 (a/k/a "half-diminished"), and diminished.
In order to be able to do this for any chord, you need to know the correct notes in the major scale. So, instead of trying to memorize that an Abmin7 is Ab Cb Eb Gb, just build your knowledge- You know that the major scale is W W H W W W H. Start on Ab (the root) so the whole step is Bb, the next whole step is C (the third), half-step to Db, whole to Eb (the fifth), whole to F, whole to G (the 7). And from knowing that a minor 7 is 1, b3, 5, b7, you pull Ab, Cb (not B), Db, and Gb.

3. Learn the Harmonized scale- write out the scale on paper. Using C as the example, you'll get:
C D E F G A B C

On top of that write out the EXACT SAME scale starting on the third note:
E F G A B C D E
C D E F G A B C

Do it again a third higher to get the triads:
G A B C D E F G
E F G A B C D E
C D E F G A B C

And one more time to get the 7th chords"
B C D E F G A B
G A B C D E F G
E F G A B C D E
C D E F G A B C

Then ANALYZE those stacks so you see WHY the I and IV are major 7th, why the ii, iii, vi are minor 7th, why the V is a dominant 7, and the viii is a minor 7 b5. Instead of memorizing merely that they ARE those kinds of chord, learn WHY they are. It'll help a lot. And a lot of this is stuff you can do on the bus, during pointless meetings, and in your head when your wife is telling you about those new shoes....

Point 2 and 3 lead right into the other part of the original question in this thread. Now that you own the scale, and you know how to determine the correct notes for the primary chords, find 'em on the bass. Don't get a chord or arpeggio chart, figure them out for yourself and write your own chart. It will bring this stuff home to you in a way that merely looking it up won't.

Take the chord progression to a song you know, and write out the chords. Then figure out the arpeggio for each chord. Find the notes (again, don't limit it starting on the root) all over the neck. Then compare that to the bass line for the song. Yeah, there'll be notes that don't follow the arpeggio and sometimes not even the key. But look for where the chord notes ARE.

For example, check out what Jack Bruce plays for the Cream song "Badge". The chords after the bass intro are Amin to D to Emin (it's a chord that's essentially an E root and 5 with the high alternating between F# and G- it's an E minor tonality). For the Amin chord Jack simply plays A C and E; hammers the root for the D chord, then plays essentially an E minor scale under the Emin chord. "My Girl" has Jamerson playing just the root and fifth for the intro. "Ain't Too Proud To Beg" is 1 3 5 on the C chord, 1 and 3 for the F chord, etc . If you KNOW the arpeggios, you'll SEE 'em in the bass lines you know and you learn.

That's enough of the 8 points for now, but I want to leave you with this too.

SING everything you play. Playing music is about sound, not physical location. If you sing everything you practice (even if you sing like me- a friend described my vocal ability as "a duet with Yoko Ono and Linda McCartney") then every move your fingers make has a sound associated with it. So when you hear that Amin arpeggio in "Badge" your ear tells your fingers what it might be. So when you hear something similar in another song, you have a head start on finding it.

John