Double Bass Ledger line notation question

[Chris Fitzgerald]

A question for all the teachers and readers out there, admittedly subjective. How do you decide when to switch clefs on an ascending or descending line versus using extensive ledger lines? Do you have a general cutoff point?

I am currently working on notating my 12-key calibration exercises for a presentation submission, and while I have played them intervalically in all 12 keys for years at this point, no matter how I write them they look funny on paper. As a simple example, if I am writing a 2 octave scale in C, at the end of it I either end up with the last note being on the space above 5 ledger lines (which leaves the line intact, but who wants to read 5 ledger lines?), or I change to treble clef at about the 8ve G and the visual of the line gets disrupted for 3 or 4 notes near the top.

So just asking for opinions on what people would prefer to see in these cases. Tenor clef is a no-go for me, so the question is, what is your general cutoff for ledger lines versus clef changes on the upper end? All input welcome.

 

[Michal Herman]

When I am reading the notes more than 3 ledger lines usually makes score harder to read.
My preference is to go up to the F# on the G string on the ledger lines, then switch to treble clef. It could be also easier for students to read, because area in the "standard" thumb position will be written in the treble clef.

 

[Don Kasper]

When I am reading the notes more than 3 ledger lines usually makes score harder to read.
My preference is to go up to the F# on the G string on the ledger lines, then switch to treble clef. It could be also easier for students to read, because area in the "standard" thumb position will be written in the treble clef.

Agreed.
Great Minds Think Alike.

 

[lurk]

My favorite to read is when it toggles between bass and treble clefs. Most of us read treble pretty well and I find making that switch easier than dealing with 8va. I am not truly fluent in tenor. Once you get above the B above the G my eyes start to blur.

 

[Steve Freides]

Tough to imagine - my suggestion would be to send a few people a couple of versions you're considering, or send what you're considering and ask if anyone thinks a different change point in particular spots would be better.

I play tuba parts sometimes when I play with the NJ Wind Symphony (a concert band), and more than 3 ledger lines in any direction makes me start having to count. If asked for a single guideline, I'm with @Michal Herman - 3 ledger lines in any clef in any direction as max.

-S-

 

[Silevesq]

I agree with what has been said before, although I have avoided writing in treble clef when doing a bass transcription. Especially for walking bass lines for part that doesn't last long.

Not sure for which instrument or ensemble you are doing this. I have some piano and choirs books that I like to use, the only problem I have come across is switching to treble clef close to the C first ledger line up. In other word an octave lower then what we usually see. For sight reading this is sort of confusing even if I can do it, my mind always bug when this happen. I've played with a few piano player that would do that. I guess just to make sure you have a different piano and bass part.

This is very personal but whenever I'm reading in bass clef and someone put ledger line on the bottom more then D and C, especially for long period aka tuba part. I sometime start to switch to treble clef for no reason... My brain seem to say "bottom ledger line make sense in treble clef, not in bass clef so let's switch..."

 

[the_Ryan]

This is probably the thing I’m sloppiest about when making transcriptions and/or engraving because it’s way less about hard and fast rules and more about appearance. I think anything between open G and octave G can be notated in either bass or treble clef but the actual point at which the clef-switching occurs is very nebulous because it’s entirely context-dependent. In your given example of a 2-octave C scale I think switching clefs around middle C (maybe with the first treble clef note being D) would work best. I think if you were notating all the 2-octave scales starting with open E the first key that would follow that same rule would probably be Ab, A, or Bb but I’m just brainstorming and providing a suggestion without set rules.

In my own projects I will drag clefs around in Sibelius until they look right ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Thanks for the feedback! I worked on this a bit yesterday and put the cutoff at around F/G on the G string, sometimes adjusting when possible to make the clef change happen at a bar line, sometimes being unable to make that work because of the speed of the line. Here are some thumbnails(click to enlarge):

So some keys like G won't need a clef change at all, while others do benefit from them to my eye. The key of C looks a little funny to me, but D makes perfect sense. The project has 6 patterns, each in a major and minor version, that go through all 12 keys.

 

[Steve Freides]

Thanks for the examples, Chris. For me and for the things that switch to treble, I'd prefer to skip the last bar or so of bass clef with ledger lines and change to treble a bar earlier. But I'm also going to guess I'm in the minority here and that what you did is a good way to do it. I hate reading ledger lines when I don't have to, and I read nothing but treble clef for my first 10 years of playing music, so treble is, if anything, more comfortable for me than bass. So, for me, a measure that doesn't go lower than D, because it works without any ledger lines in treble, would be my preference.

-S-

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

I could get with D as a cutoff, but I ended up choosing G because the last four patterns/keys are arpeggios, and those are going to look a little crazy no matter what I do. One thing that takes the pressure off a bit is that these patterns are simple, logical, and predictable, so that anyone playing them will be able to easily feel where they are going in spite of the notation. I've been practicing them and patterns like them intervallically for years now.

 

[Steve Freides]

One thing that takes the pressure off a bit is that these patterns are simple, logical, and predictable, so that anyone playing them will be able to easily feel where they are going in spite of the notation. I've been practicing them and patterns like them intervallically for years now.

I practice a Petracchi (sp?) warmup my teacher showed me that I don't think I've ever seen written down. (Note to self - I own the book that contains it, I should go play more of those exercises.)

FWIW, I try to point out sequences in things my students play and ask them to do just that - grok the pattern, and then continue playing it past the point where it stops in the printed music in front of them.

-S-

 

[Adam Booker]

This is 100% my opinion. YMMV. Looking at those examples, I’m apt to prefer the cutoff around middle c to avoid some of the large leaps I’m seeing. While it may only sound a 2nd, the eye sees a 10th or greater, which would disrupt my flow if I were sight reading at tempo. Cool exercises, though!

 

[Les Fret]

Think I would write anything that doesn’t go higher than C (4 ledger lines) without clef changes. But if it goes higher than 4 ledger lines I would switch to the G clef from the octave. Depending on the line and context of course. If you have a line dat doesn’t go higher than high C but stays for a long time around that same position I would also change to the G clef instead of staying in F clef with too long passages with many ledger lines.

All in all I try to avoid too much clef changes in the same melodic line. The first page of your example I would write all in the F clef for example. I don’t have a problem with ledger lines if it is not more than 4 or 5. So in case of high C it is only 4 ledger lines and I would prefer that over cutting of the line.

 

[SteveCS]

Anything would be an improvement on this...

 

[mdlewis]

What about 8va and sticking in bass cleff?

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

This is 100% my opinion. YMMV. Looking at those examples, I’m apt to prefer the cutoff around middle c to avoid some of the large leaps I’m seeing. While it may only sound a 2nd, the eye sees a 10th or greater, which would disrupt my flow if I were sight reading at tempo. Cool exercises, though!

When you say middle C, do you mean written middle C or sounding?

 

[Adam Booker]

When you say middle C, do you mean written middle C or sounding?

Written

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

@SteveCS yes, this kind of notation is just terrible, IMO.

 

[longfinger]

I think 3 ledger lines up or down is a great limit. On bass clef (down an octave), 3 lines up to G3 (196Hz), and 3 lines down to A1 (27.5Hz).

For exercises, getting students used to reading ledger lines 1, 2, 3 up is a good thing. But for actual music, do whatever is needed to get the point across, such as switching to treble at a lower pitch.

Another thing to try, for exercises that have large ranges, is to write it all in grand staff (piano staff) down an octave. Then the switches are visually consistent in arcs, with no jumps in clef change. Trade off is a lot of empty measures and using more space per system.

I often think solo guitar music should be written in grand staff instead of only in treble staff with all those ledger lines.

Changing clef in the middle of a bar is needlessly hard to read. Don't do that! Lol.

 

[Adam Booker]

@SteveCS yes, this kind of notation is just terrible, IMO.

View attachment 3823060

ugh. If I had a dime every time something like that got me. Should have stayed with jazz...