Live performance - have analog effects pedals had their day?

[vvvmmm]

Rumbledore: "Yea. One example is "drained battery sag" in an NPN fuzz. The digital equivalent would just turn itself off like when asking Alexa if she works with the CIA."

That fits, I reckon (the NPN part). But I always feel, when comparing digital pedals to analog equivalents, that the analog is more interactive, seem to have more depth, etc. Something like a POG, where it's it's own thing, that doesn't bother me. But, and mebbe I shoulda said it's the digi-multis (Zoom stuff, Boss), they always feel not as solid as analog pedals when I mix 'em on the same board. I mean, that MS60B, it's fun, but it doesn't sound as good as the real stuff, and doesn't feel near as deep - it's like frosting versus cake to the sound.

 

[Sunset Shalom]

Tube amplification is an outdated technology, it's a fact. It's been replaced in every other sector, the only ones still using it are the "audiophiles" (and some military application says wikipedia).
Tubes are inefficient, fragile and require heavy transformers.
Yes, they sound cool but that's it.

Yeah that's it except for the hundreds/thousands of famous classic artists that got at least part of their sound via tube amps. Countless famous classic recordings used tube amps, tube mics, tube compressors, etc.

Many famous artists still use tube amps today, and there is a booming boutique amp culture. There's nothing wrong with SS stuff or even hybrid amps, but full tube rigs are hard to beat and will probably always have their place in music.

Look up some digital compressors and compare them to some tube compressors, both cost and sound wise. I have nothing against digital stuff, and some can get pretty close to emulating analog sounds. But there's a reason big studios still use a ton of vintage gear including a lot of analog/tube stuff, and are willing to spend hundreds or thousands on a single tube compressor or EQ. Check out tube mics as well, they start out in the hundreds and fancy Telefunken tube mics sell for thousands.

So inefficiency aside there is a reason people still use tubes. Also the fragile thing is partially a myth, tube gear can take more servicing sometimes. But there's a huge demand for vintage tubes, and if taken care of a nice tube can last decades depending on how it is used. A single rare/vintage tube sell for hundreds in good condition.

 

[Bassheart365]

My ears prefer analog. That's all that matters to me. Also, the pedal board in your photo with the Helix has a Cog Effects octaver. That is ANALOG. (And a very good one at that.) If the Helix digital octaver is just as good, why would he bother to have that on his board? I will answer - because to him it sounds better. But we all have different ears.

 

[Beheroth]

Yeah that's it except for the hundreds/thousands of famous classic artists that got at least part of their sound via tube amps. Countless famous classic recordings used tube amps, tube mics, tube compressors, etc.

Many famous artists still use tube amps today, and there is a booming boutique amp culture. There's nothing wrong with SS stuff or even hybrid amps, but full tube rigs are hard to beat and will probably always have their place in music.

Look up some digital compressors and compare them to some tube compressors, both cost and sound wise. I have nothing against digital stuff, and some can get pretty close to emulating analog sounds. But there's a reason big studios still use a ton of vintage gear including a lot of analog/tube stuff, and are willing to spend hundreds or thousands on a single tube compressor or EQ. Check out tube mics as well, they start out in the hundreds and fancy Telefunken tube mics sell for thousands.

So inefficiency aside there is a reason people still use tubes. Also the fragile thing is partially a myth, tube gear can take more servicing sometimes. But there's a huge demand for vintage tubes, and if taken care of a nice tube can last decades depending on how it is used. A single rare/vintage tube sell for hundreds in good condition.

Yeah well, that's what i was saying.
I'm saying, from a strictly technological point, tubes are obsolete.
Yet there are still used in the audio business because people like them, simple as that.

 

[Sunset Shalom]

Yeah well, that's what i was saying.
I'm saying, from a strictly technological point, tubes are obsolete.
Yet there are still used in the audio business because people like them, simple as that.

Ahh cool, I couldn't tell. Thought this thread had turned into some tube bashing for a minute

 

[Deleted member 165050]

Yeah well, that's what i was saying.
I'm saying, from a strictly technological point, tubes are obsolete.

Obsolete maybe, but still in use in avionics computers in in-service aircraft.

 

[flam]

I think analog single effects will be around for as long as music is. I've used a helix live, and to me it's more than good enough, but I still prefer my tube amps for some reason. Same with my single effects board. The only issue I really see with multi-effects is that you get a small sample of the hundreds (if not thousands) of unique versions of the same kind of effect. If the companies that made those well liked effects would release a modeling patch of it that you could buy, maybe that would help.

 

[Hundred proof]

There is one of the problems ... a good number of the effects and amps I use are long out of production and also had small production numbers, there are no samples available ... and that doesn't even take into account the interaction factor.

 

[Karlson541]

I seriously doubt that.
Sure digital emulations get better and better, and sure a lot of people, even more than now, will use digital multi effects to replace some or all of their analog pedals or even amps.
However no matter how good digital gear gets, and even if it may sound as good or better than the original analog pedal it is emulating, it will never be able to sound 100% like a specific analog pedal or make an amp emulation send through the PA sound exactly like a specific amp and cab combination.
Also a lot of people will insist on sticking to traditions or think it is cool to use old vintage gear.
So for that reason I think it is very unlikely that digital multi effects will take over live performances completely, although I think it is safe to say that they will become even more common to use than is the case now, especially among non professionals and cover bands.
It can't be argued that no matter what digital multi effects are more practical and handy as well as in most cases also a lot more flexible than is the case with analog gear.

 

[Beheroth]

Ahh cool, I couldn't tell. Thought this thread had turned into some tube bashing for a minute

nah, i was replying to the butthurt guy who went "hurr durr outdated my ass" and who also missed my point.

 

[InternetAlias]

However no matter how good digital gear gets, and even if it may sound as good or better than the original analog pedal it is emulating, it will never be able to sound 100% like a specific analog pedal or make an amp emulation send through the PA sound exactly like a specific amp and cab combination.

I'm pretty sure that individual amp+cab combination mic'd a specific way in a specific room vary way more than you think. Getting close enough is what digital modeling does, and it's good enough due to this reason. You can't 100% model something that's not 100% same compared to ITSELF.

In my tests, two tube screamers didn't sound the same, and a guy who swore by analog gear couldn't tell the modeled one apart from two actual TS9s, so there you go.

 

[Karlson541]

I'm pretty sure that individual amp+cab combination mic'd a specific way in a specific room vary way more than you think. Getting close enough is what digital modeling does, and it's good enough due to this reason. You can't 100% model something that's not 100% same compared to ITSELF.

In my tests, two tube screamers didn't sound the same, and a guy who swore by analog gear couldn't tell the modeled one apart from two actual TS9s, so there you go.

I never claimed anything else.
My point was that some people will continue to prefer to use the gear they know gets them the sound they want and that they are familiar with, even if they could get a digital unit that gets them 99% close, would be more flexible or perhaps even would make them sound better in some cases.

Even if you can get 100% close with a digital emulation, it will only be 100% close in some situation, as you write yourself, as the digital emulation will not act exactly as it's analog counterpart to how you use and set it, hence work differently from what you are familiar with.

 

[Al Krow]

My ears prefer analog. That's all that matters to me. Also, the pedal board in your photo with the Helix has a Cog Effects octaver. That is ANALOG. (And a very good one at that.) If the Helix digital octaver is just as good, why would he bother to have that on his board? I will answer - because to him it sounds better. But we all have different ears.

Just a bit more background on the OP - the guy's pedalboard is set up as follows:

"Bass > Keeley Compressor Pro > Helix Hx > Mesa amps
The Hx also acts as the control centre for the other pedsls, loop 1 “Synths” has the Future Impact and COG T65 in the chain and loop 2 “Dirt and Grit” has the Bearfoot BBO and the Darkglass Duality."

My dep guitarist is using a Helix and NOTHING else. Guess what - in a live mix he sounds just as good as the guitarist who is using just analog pedals (and sometimes better on certain tracks e.g. our Helix guy managed to emulate both guitar & horn section on one of Beyoncé's tracks we recently did at a wedding, by multi-layering. Hats off to him - no way should we have been able to pull that off as a 4 piece band, but the wedding couple had requested the track specially).

I do agree with you that multi-fx isn't there on everything yet (I touched on that in my OP) but if it can cut down our boards whereby we maybe have just a couple of other dedicated pedals which we both use a lot & where dedicated pedals are still noticeably better; rather than the multiple pedals I have on my board and we can sequence a patch for every song, which we can access at the push of button when playing live - that sounds like progress to me. I'm definitely impressed by what our dep guitarist is managing to do - and I'm thinking that if it's good enough for the band's guitarist then it's kinda something I should be open to also as the bass player?

If it makes for a better / slicker live show then it's got to be a good thing right? Audiences aren't really going to care whether a certain effect might have sounded a tiny bit better with analog when heard in the band mix, but they will surely notice gaps in our (function) sets if we are faffing about adjusting pedals?

 

[Korladis]

Eh, I prefer dedicated pedals, as multis I feel tend not to have the flexibility. I also like going for really unusual sounds with my pedals, sometimes the "wrong" sounds. Using them not as they were intended at times. Dedicated pedals are better that way.

That said, right now the only true analog pedals on my board are fuzz and wah. I have three pedals with various amounts of digital circuitry in them, and they wouldn't work without it (though the extent to which the Korg Miku, the first in the chain after my tuner, actually "works" is a matter of perspective).

 

[Bassheart365]

Just a bit more background on the OP - the guy's pedalboard is set up as follows:

"Bass > Keeley Compressor Pro > Helix Hx > Mesa amps
The Hx also acts as the control centre for the other pedsls, loop 1 “Synths” has the Future Impact and COG T65 in the chain and loop 2 “Dirt and Grit” has the Bearfoot BBO and the Darkglass Duality."

My dep guitarist is using a Helix and NOTHING else. Guess what - in a live mix he sounds just as good as the guitarist who is using just analog pedals (and sometimes better on certain tracks e.g. our Helix guy managed to emulate both guitar & horn section on one of Beyoncé's tracks we recently did at a wedding, by multi-layering. Hats off to him - no way should we have been able to pull that off as a 4 piece band, but the wedding couple had requested the track specially).

I do agree with you that multi-fx isn't there on everything yet (I touched on that in my OP) but if it can cut down our boards whereby we maybe have just a couple of other dedicated pedals which we both use a lot & where dedicated pedals are still noticeably better; rather than the multiple pedals I have on my board and we can sequence a patch for every song, which we can access at the push of button when playing live - that sounds like progress to me. I'm definitely impressed by what our dep guitarist is managing to do - and I'm thinking that if it's good enough for the band's guitarist then it's kinda something I should be open to also as the bass player?

If it makes for a better / slicker live show then it's got to be a good thing right? Audiences aren't really going to care whether a certain effect might have sounded a tiny bit better with analog when heard in the band mix, but they will surely notice gaps in our (function) sets if we are faffing about adjusting pedals?

Just a bit more background on the OP - the guy's pedalboard is set up as follows:

"Bass > Keeley Compressor Pro > Helix Hx > Mesa amps
The Hx also acts as the control centre for the other pedsls, loop 1 “Synths” has the Future Impact and COG T65 in the chain and loop 2 “Dirt and Grit” has the Bearfoot BBO and the Darkglass Duality."

My dep guitarist is using a Helix and NOTHING else. Guess what - in a live mix he sounds just as good as the guitarist who is using just analog pedals (and sometimes better on certain tracks e.g. our Helix guy managed to emulate both guitar & horn section on one of Beyoncé's tracks we recently did at a wedding, by multi-layering. Hats off to him - no way should we have been able to pull that off as a 4 piece band, but the wedding couple had requested the track specially).

I do agree with you that multi-fx isn't there on everything yet (I touched on that in my OP) but if it can cut down our boards whereby we maybe have just a couple of other dedicated pedals which we both use a lot & where dedicated pedals are still noticeably better; rather than the multiple pedals I have on my board and we can sequence a patch for every song, which we can access at the push of button when playing live - that sounds like progress to me. I'm definitely impressed by what our dep guitarist is managing to do - and I'm thinking that if it's good enough for the band's guitarist then it's kinda something I should be open to also as the bass player?

If it makes for a better / slicker live show then it's got to be a good thing right? Audiences aren't really going to care whether a certain effect might have sounded a tiny bit better with analog when heard in the band mix, but they will surely notice gaps in our (function) sets if we are faffing about adjusting pedals?

Well I'm not saying digital is bad. I have a Future Impact, which is my favorite synth pedal. But I have used digital octaves, envelope filters, fuzz pedals and delays. I eventually replaced all of them with analog versions. Because they sound better to my ears. And that's what's important to me. I didn't care if the audience can't hear the difference.

 

[Aidenn7]

the truth is Analogic is classic.. axe effects and kempers are obsolete as soon as they come out. the wave of digital will move to straight computer..

 

[InternetAlias]

Well I'm not saying digital is bad. I have a Future Impact, which is my favorite synth pedal. But I have used digital octaves, envelope filters, fuzz pedals and delays. I eventually replaced all of them with analog versions. Because they sound better to my ears. And that's what's important to me. I didn't care if the audience can't hear the difference. difference.

The biggest problem with digital PEDALS is that they typically have a !@#$ computer. Just think about it - you're using a pretty bad computer to simulate analog gear, which costs a lot of CPU resources when simulated on a proper PC. This is why I stay clear off digital pedals, but like multi effect processors which actually have decent processing power, and therefore, results.

All digital octavers I have tried have had terrible aliasing which doesn't exist on analog octavers.

Now, with a proper CPU, digital pedals would be able to accomplish way more, but companies that like to overcharge for them always end up dumping terrible chips into them There's also CPU strength vs battery power which makes digital PEDALS pretty bad.

 

[JimmyM]

Tube amplification is an outdated technology, it's a fact. It's been replaced in every other sector, the only ones still using it are the "audiophiles" (and some military application says wikipedia).
Tubes are inefficient, fragile and require heavy transformers.
Yes, they sound cool but that's it.

Fragile...lol! When I hear someone say that, I automatically think they have little to no experience with tube amps.

 

[Bassheart365]

the truth is Analogic is classic.. axe effects and kempers are obsolete as soon as they come out. the wave of digital will move to straight computer..

So you mean bringing a laptop to the gig?

 

[InternetAlias]

Fragile...lol! When I hear someone say that, I automatically think they have little to no experience with tube amps.

Would a sane person claim that tube amps (including tubes, which are part of them) are not more fragile than ss amps?