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Yeah, I'd like us to reach a level where we can play without ear plugs. But that's really hard to ask of people when they have ear damage.
And the balance when it comes to the guitar is really tough it seems. With plugs in - too quiet. I pull my plugs out - too loud. I love this band but I'm very close to quitting unfortunately. Sucks.
Don't know if I'd give age as an excuse for disliking the amplitudes that are part and parcel of live shows. It's a fairly well known fact that hearing acuity diminishes with age and more so with males. Still you can't drag my 65 year old ears with their diminished capabilities to any live venue any longer. My contention is that sound at 125 db breaks up to a smear in your head and you've now lost your time and the price of a ticket.
If you like being successful on the club circuit, you will learn in a hurry that you are working for the club owner, and that the only yardstick they use is how full the cash box is. That generally means that the bar tender has to be able to hear the drink orders, and the wait staff has to be able to hear the food orders.
Bands that fail to understand that dynamic find themselves without gigs.
Volume in the large concert halls is another matter entirely. I've been to many shows over the years, and the only one I walked out of was a Black Sabbath concert in Cobo Hall in Detroit in 1973. The music was actually very clear and well played; just way too much volume. That's on the sound folks. I doubt the band had any idea FOH was running at that level.
The most recent large performance I've been to was Chicago; and they were way loud, though the concert was outdoors; so, that helped. It seemed to me that the FOH amplification and arrays have become much more sophisticated and capable over the years. I can see some of the stories in this thread. FOH people may be getting a bit drunk with power.
Bands that fail to understand that dynamic find themselves without gigs.
Volume in the large concert halls is another matter entirely. I've been to many shows over the years, and the only one I walked out of was a Black Sabbath concert in Cobo Hall in Detroit in 1973. The music was actually very clear and well played; just way too much volume. That's on the sound folks. I doubt the band had any idea FOH was running at that level.
The most recent large performance I've been to was Chicago; and they were way loud, though the concert was outdoors; so, that helped. It seemed to me that the FOH amplification and arrays have become much more sophisticated and capable over the years. I can see some of the stories in this thread. FOH people may be getting a bit drunk with power.
A pub about 2/3 mile away from my house had a music tent outside. They do it every year. Only about 40 people actually go to it. But I can hear it at my house, so I feel sorry for the Catholic Church and the old folks home right next to it (no joke). They already had complaints from last years events, and now its even louder. Plus, it's not that good, and they played till 2am. Annoying. Quality of the band is far more important than the volume. They are only performing for a small crowd. Turn it down.
And I'm not an old man complain about 'those darn kids', I'm 23. But I appreciate noise pollution. No need for that sort of volume. And it's probably not the bands fault, it's most likely the sound guy's/gals. Or the event organisers telling them to turn it up. Should have told em to turn down. No need for it.
And I'm not an old man complain about 'those darn kids', I'm 23. But I appreciate noise pollution. No need for that sort of volume. And it's probably not the bands fault, it's most likely the sound guy's/gals. Or the event organisers telling them to turn it up. Should have told em to turn down. No need for it.
I try to keep it low, but drummers and guitarists. We get asked to turn up here and there and clubs complain if the subs are not pounding. only takes one slider to turn up, but everyone has to cooperate to come down. Sometimes its tough to do when you live in a market full of "self titled" professionals with delusions of rock star grandeur. I had to fire my last guitarist over the argument that a 100 watt mesa cranked though a 4x12 isn't actually louder than through a 1x12, it "just sounds fuller." I wish this story wasn't true. (Ps, he also had many other prima donna tendencies, I'm not quite that petty.)
I agree, and I take my stage earplugs to concerts all the time. Especially indoors.
My wife took me to see Lady Gaga in Vegas the other day. That show was so loud that it was impossible to hear anything. It was just a huge wall of mashed up sound. And this was with the plugs.
Ironically, two days earlier we had seen Green Day outdoors in Denver - a punk rock band - they were a bit less loud and to my ears sounded about 400% better in all senses.
My wife took me to see Lady Gaga in Vegas the other day. That show was so loud that it was impossible to hear anything. It was just a huge wall of mashed up sound. And this was with the plugs.
Ironically, two days earlier we had seen Green Day outdoors in Denver - a punk rock band - they were a bit less loud and to my ears sounded about 400% better in all senses.
Can we talk about directionality for a moment? I recently encountered this at a stadium. Our regular seats (near and to the side of the jumbotron) are fine, except for one point, where they just crank things. We sat once across the stadium, jumbotron clear on the other side, but the directionality of the speakers was excruciating for the duration of the event.
I've encountered this in clubs, too. Mains above and to the sides of the stage. Even a good 35-50 feet away, if you stood where they were aimed, the kick hurt your chest and the hiss from high freqs was super pointy. Down the street from there, they weren't micing the drums, so the level was much better (but still too loud--the drummer was hammering his kit to keep up with the guitars)
I've encountered this in clubs, too. Mains above and to the sides of the stage. Even a good 35-50 feet away, if you stood where they were aimed, the kick hurt your chest and the hiss from high freqs was super pointy. Down the street from there, they weren't micing the drums, so the level was much better (but still too loud--the drummer was hammering his kit to keep up with the guitars)
For me, this is a far bigger issue than the volume level. I've been to too many shows where the level of the low end is way too loud and is an indistinct mush with no definition at all and every kick drum beat is a cannon blast. Sure, if I'm in a thumpa thumpa dance club that'd be great*. But, for music, it's completely wrong.
* I'm just using that as an example. Even if I for some reason WANTED to go to a thumpa thumpa dance club there's not a doorman in the world who'd look at me and say, "Yeah, I gotta let this guy in here!".
I saw them in Atlantic City about 3 years ago and the sound was so bad my wife decided after that show that she doesn't want to go to any more rock concerts with me. Even with earplugs the volume level was obscene but the worst part was the horrible mix. No definition at all in the low end, the cymbals and guitars were shrill ice picks to the brain, and the kick drum was sadistic. Then I saw them again in Las Vegas last summer. They were still loud and I was glad I had my ear plugs, but the mix was phenomenal. Every instrument and every voice was easily heard even while wearing my earplugs.
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That just sounds like bad live sound, not your age. I'm older than you and recently played a couple of shows that were really loud but sounded very clear onstage and out in the room. I think the secret is not totally cranking your amps like you said, and also having sound staff who know what they're doing and give a damn.
A band I was in opened up for Badfish (THE Sublime cover band) and their sound guy mixed them so low, we could easily talk over them. The bar chatter was almost drowning them out. It was really odd, and I didn't like it. I'm all for a good mix, but I also like to pump the volume for the feels.
The old adage...."If you can't play good, play loud"
I'm pushing 70 and hate it when play too loud. We start with a comfortable volume and it keeps getting louder. To combat this I consciously try NOT to turn my volume up. Eventually the guitar player yells at me to turn up and I tell him to turn down. (the rest of the band agrees with me)
I watch the audience. If they lean in and yell in each others ears, we're too loud.
I'm pushing 70 and hate it when play too loud. We start with a comfortable volume and it keeps getting louder. To combat this I consciously try NOT to turn my volume up. Eventually the guitar player yells at me to turn up and I tell him to turn down. (the rest of the band agrees with me)
I watch the audience. If they lean in and yell in each others ears, we're too loud.
I went to see the Gypsy Kings a couple of months ago. They are a nylon Spanish guitar band with a basic drums, bass and synth backup. The vocals are the stars of the show. The bass and kick were so loud and muddy it pretty much took the subtleties out of the performances and , for me, ruined the show. I'm sure the bass player was good, drummer as well but the mix sucked. No one seemed to care. I don't get it.
I even use ear plugs when I mow the lawn. I'll do whatever I can to curb my tinnitus.
...and when the tinnitus gets to me I listen to this as it actually trains the brain to cancel out the associated frequencies:
...and when the tinnitus gets to me I listen to this as it actually trains the brain to cancel out the associated frequencies:
Michael Schreiber
Commercial User
Due to my tinnitus, I have rather problems with too crappy sound.
For example, I never had a problem at a ManOwaR gig. The sound was loud, but crystal clear.
Yet, at festivals like Wacken Open Air, I liked to see "smaller" bands at the Party Stage.
There were really cool bands, I could have enjoyed - if the sound would have been cranked less.
It was not the overall loudness, but the distortion that really hurt my ears. So, I had to wear ears plugs, then realised that with plugs it was too silent, yet without plugs it hurt. Really a pity.
Since that was the case with virtually any band on that stage, I dare guess it was the FOH who cranked a too crappy PA.
For example, I never had a problem at a ManOwaR gig. The sound was loud, but crystal clear.
Yet, at festivals like Wacken Open Air, I liked to see "smaller" bands at the Party Stage.
There were really cool bands, I could have enjoyed - if the sound would have been cranked less.
It was not the overall loudness, but the distortion that really hurt my ears. So, I had to wear ears plugs, then realised that with plugs it was too silent, yet without plugs it hurt. Really a pity.
Since that was the case with virtually any band on that stage, I dare guess it was the FOH who cranked a too crappy PA.
Cowboy Junkies. Only band I've seen in the last 20 years where I took my earplugs out. Big, full, loud enough, but not too loud. There were a few places where the mix wasn't perfect, but I didn't care - I could still hear everyhing well enough to thoroughly enjoy the show. I'd like to have their sound person at the board whenever and wherever I play.
Total agreement with OP and thanks Adhesive_X for the partial solution (hearing loss, not sound quality).
Sadly, I'm in such a band. Even the drummer asks the sound guy to turn us down. Sometimes it sounds like mud.
If it's too loud you're too old.
I must be too old. I wear earplugs to almost every show I go to. When I do sound, mostly for Irish trad and bluegrass bands with hand drums or no drums, I keep average levels to 85dB or less in the middle of the room. When I play fiddle I keep the stage level to 90 or less. When I play bass it's mostly coffee house / gallery /house party gigs in support of singer/songwriter folks so the volume is even lower. I'm happy about that.
I was at an outdoor festival recently. There was a decent crowd but the people nearest the stage were 50-60 feet away. You'd think the band and FOH guy could tell it was too loud just by looking.
I must be too old. I wear earplugs to almost every show I go to. When I do sound, mostly for Irish trad and bluegrass bands with hand drums or no drums, I keep average levels to 85dB or less in the middle of the room. When I play fiddle I keep the stage level to 90 or less. When I play bass it's mostly coffee house / gallery /house party gigs in support of singer/songwriter folks so the volume is even lower. I'm happy about that.
I was at an outdoor festival recently. There was a decent crowd but the people nearest the stage were 50-60 feet away. You'd think the band and FOH guy could tell it was too loud just by looking.
And that's with all of them playing on ten.
