Loudness issue

[ReeV0]

Try the BB2 with an amp that can really drive it before you get rid of it. I would also guess, having never heard the head you’re using, that you don’t like its voicing and you’re used to the TC baked-in tone. No disrespect to Harley Benton, I use some of their products, but they are on the budget side of things.

Even though the BB2 is (from what I have read) incredible for a 1x12, you can’t expect it to break the laws of physics. If I were you I’d still see if you can make the BB2 work for you, as they are highly regarded and portable. There are some seriously potent amps out there which could maybe give you what you’re missing.

Since most of the time I actually just plug straight into the venue's DI, I wanted as much of a transparent amp as I could find. I was using the effects return of my RH750, but there was a serious volume drop when I did that. I essentially bought the Harley Benton as a cheap ICEpower 700 (running into the effects return). I could take both BB2's to gigs without PA support (or a BB2 and SM in my case), but then it's more cumbersome than just taking one RS212 :/

 

[Wasnex]

Assuming you like the sound of the BB2 and the Block-800B, I recommend trying a second matching cab.

Your amp is rated 4 ohm minimum. The BB2 is 8 ohms so you should be able to run a pair of BB2s on this amp.

Barefaced does not specify 800W RMS. They specify 800W Max Amp Power, which could mean something else.

Maybe the BB2 can take 800W RMS, but this level of power is likely to be punishing for a single 12. Also pushing the cab to it's limit will likely result in significant power compression. Meaning the measured SPL will be less than the calculated SPL.

Barefaced claims Max Output is 127dB, but 800W calculated into 97dB 1W/1m = [Log(800) x 10] + 97 = ~126dB. If the cab experiences 4dB of power compression, the measured output will be down to ~122dB.

If the Sensitivity rating of one BB2 is 97dB 1W/1m, the Sensitivity rating of two will be about 100dB 1W/1m. So you get about +3dB from adding a matching cab.

It's been suggested the amp makes 500W at 8 ohms and 800W at 4 ohms. This change of power translates to a +2dB change.

So SPL should go up about +5dB total from adding a second BB2.

Since each cab will only see 400W when the amp is pushing max rated power, I believe the drivers will incur less power compression, and also have better long term reliability.

If the Block-800B is making an honest 500W, then getting an amp that can feed the cab 800W is not likely to make anywhere near as much of a difference as adding a second cab. 500W is already quite a bit of power for a 112. Increasing the power to 800W may push the calculated SPL up +2dB, but the extra power compression that results from pushing the cab this hard should also be considered. Normally we say you need +3dB to hear a clear difference...so raising the power from 500W to 800W in this circumstance may be totally insignificant.

Trying a different amp makes sense if the Block-800B does not make an honest 500W at 8 ohms, or if you don't like the way the amp and cab sound together.

 

[Jazzjames]

Since most of the time I actually just plug straight into the venue's DI, I wanted as much of a transparent amp as I could find. I was using the effects return of my RH750, but there was a serious volume drop when I did that. I essentially bought the Harley Benton as a cheap ICEpower 700 (running into the effects return). I could take both BB2's to gigs without PA support (or a BB2 and SM in my case), but then it's more cumbersome than just taking one RS212 :/

Then maybe you are getting the most out of it. Is the amp significantly louder when you don’t go into the fx return, and rather use the input? Using the preamp and livening up your sound may make it cut through more.

I misunderstood how powerful your amp is at 8ohms and therefore my suggestion of throwing more power at the situation probably won’t help. I just know from experience with my Greenboy Fearless F12 that my Aguilar TH500 couldn’t really drive it that well and the cab sounded quite flat, but when I used my Quilter or SVT-7 it came alive.

 

[agedhorse]

Amp doesn't do 500 watts rms at 8 ohms, it's 400 watts RMS because the SMPS is PWM regulated..

 

[dbsfgyd1]

Also I note that the RS212 is a vertical 2*12, so if you have both on the floor the RS will be delivering its volume a lot closer to your ear. A stand/table might be worth considering.


Is that a sensible question to ask on TB? [grin] What percentage of us could honestly say that we've never acquired new gear on an idle whim rather than cold logic?

Good question. I can't say never, but in the last 50 years I've never bought a piece of gear on a whim.

 

[dbsfgyd1]

Now that I’m 64, I know why older people always seemed so miserable.

Ain't that the truth?

 

[dbsfgyd1]

I only shop at stores with the thinnest plastic bags. Sure, I might lose som groceries, but I can feel superior to those who have to tote thicker bags. : smug:

You actually admit to using plastic bags?? Oh boy.....AND feeling superior?

 

[Drredplate]

Hi all,

I have previously been using a TC RH750 paired with a single TC RS212 for my pub gigs. Have never had an issue with low volume, always sounded loud and punchy.

Fancied a change of gear so I sold the TC stack and bought myself a Harley Benton Block 800B paired with a Barefaced Big Baby 2.

Had my first pub gig with the new stack last night, and to say I was less than impressed is an understatement... Low volume, low bass and lack of punch. I read great things about both the head and cab before purchasing, so I was confident they would at least match the TC in terms of volume, but no. I had the amp cranked and it just sounded lacking, both on stage and in the audience. With both setups I was playing with a singer, guitarist and drummer (4-piece band).

Aside from the RS212 being a 2x12, and the BB2 being a 1x12, I can't think why my new stack would be so much worse. RH750 into 8ohm would be around 150W, and the 800B into 8ohm would be around 500W. I really don't get it!

A single 12 won’t do loud. Once it reaches x max no more watts will be of any help. You need cone area to move air.

 

[micguy]

Tattoo this on the forehead of every bassist out there running a tiny cabinet, wondering why they cannot be heard.

One of the things people want to overlook is the fact that small speakers, while they might be efficient at 1 kHz, are not very efficient at low frequencies - the Physics just can't be overcome. Hence it takes a LOT of power if you want low end to come out of them, and at some point, the amp and the cabinet are seriously overworked. Sure, your amp is easy to transport, but can't keep up with a drummer. In college, I played with your typical rock band, and we didn't have a big PA to support bass, so it was my amp carrying all my sound to the audience. I had a couple 115's that were heavy, hard to move around, but efficient, and (as they weren't tiny) they had decent low end. I kept up with a loud drummer just fine...with a 90 watt head.

 

[aprod]

Why you would think a 1x12 would be equivalent to a 2x12 no matter the manufacturer is beyond me.

 

[J Wilson]

First, it would be a real leap for any single 12 to equal two 12's unless the single was exceptional in a very efficient cabinet and the 212 was a bingo-calling cabinet. But here, I'd give nod to the Barefaced, but the TC is not a dog by any means.

Going by the figures quoted above, the HB head would net 3-4db real world over the RH, BUT the single 12 is 5db down in the quoted specs. Depending on porting and a number of differences, this is how you got where you are, and I'd be skeptical of amps 'built to a price'. Many amps use some common parts, but hanging a Mercedes-Benz alternator on a Hyundai motor probably changes nothing.

For now, I'd use the HB head on the 212 if it will handle that power, then down the line get a different head and a second Barefaced.

 

[MCF]

Harley Benton versus a rig from Mesa, GK, Bergantio, etc. is apples and oranges. The power rating of the power amp section, other than to make sure your cabs can accommodate what you’re using, is only one component needed for volume. Speaker pairing, resistance lloads, and cab sensitivity are just as important. And there are other considerations.

 

[bertthebassist]

I wonder how they carry bags of the groceries from the car to the house.

I was thinking about that today when I realized that my box of groceries weighed more than my 212.

 

[ctmullins]

Displacement >> Watts

 

[Bluzeman90]

Putting a Harley Benton head onto a barefaced cab is pretty hilarious. It's like putting Walmart tires on an AMG Mercedes. I would try a different amp on top, maybe borrow one and see if that fixes the problem. The sensitivity issue is certainly going to be a factor, but if you're going to drop all that coin on a boutique cabinet, might as well try something beyond the value brand head you put on it

 

[ReeV0]

Why you would think a 1x12 would be equivalent to a 2x12 no matter the manufacturer is beyond me.

It's what's stated on the Barefaced website and I've seen numerous posts on here testifying to its accuracy

 

[ReeV0]

Putting a Harley Benton head onto a barefaced cab is pretty hilarious. It's like putting Walmart tires on an AMG Mercedes. I would try a different amp on top, maybe borrow one and see if that fixes the problem. The sensitivity issue is certainly going to be a factor, but if you're going to drop all that coin on a boutique cabinet, might as well try something beyond the value brand head you put on it

I've also owned and tried the Genzler Magellan 800, Bergantino Forte and GK Legacy 800. When going through the effects return, there was nothing these amps could do that the Harley Benton couldn't. I forgot to mention originally that I use a HX Stomp as a preamp

 

[Rip Van Dan]

Hi all,

I have previously been using a TC RH750 paired with a single TC RS212 for my pub gigs. Have never had an issue with low volume, always sounded loud and punchy.

Fancied a change of gear so I sold the TC stack and bought myself a Harley Benton Block 800B paired with a Barefaced Big Baby 2.

Had my first pub gig with the new stack last night, and to say I was less than impressed is an understatement... Low volume, low bass and lack of punch. I read great things about both the head and cab before purchasing, so I was confident they would at least match the TC in terms of volume, but no. I had the amp cranked and it just sounded lacking, both on stage and in the audience. With both setups I was playing with a singer, guitarist and drummer (4-piece band).

Aside from the RS212 being a 2x12, and the BB2 being a 1x12, I can't think why my new stack would be so much worse. RH750 into 8ohm would be around 150W, and the 800B into 8ohm would be around 500W. I really don't get it!

More speakers always makes a difference. I use an Eden TN226 class D amp, which is only 225-watts for small venues. I run it into a very compact Eden EX-112 which will handle 300-watts rms. Bought it specifically because I needed a small-venue set up for a brew pub where we hosted Open-Mic Night on Fridays over 40-times a year. It was perfect for that small venue in our 5-pc. group.

I was so impressed with the sound of this compact cab that I immediately ordered a second one and started using two of them for medium-sized venues. Since I bought the first one in 4Ω, I had to buy the second one in 4Ω too. I didn't have an amp that would handle a 2Ω load so I used a dual powerblock amp (Eden WT500/800) that could put out up to 400-watts rms into each of them. I never ran it hard enough to stress the speakers because it was plenty loud without pushing them; I use a very clear and clean sound; and I listen for any stress. I ran that set up for about a year before I got my DNA Endorsement deal and bought one of the DNS-210 cabs. Got a lot of compliments on my sound but there's no way that just one of my 112's would have handled gig-levels in a medium-sized venue by itself. If I had used one of my other amps that puts out 400-watts into 4Ω and tried to fill a medium-sized venue, I would have had to crank it and would have blown the speaker in my 112.

If I remember correctly, stacking the cabs one on top of the other gives you and extra 6db of sound (3db from the floor and 3db from sonic coupling) and running twice as many speakers gives you an additional 3db of sound for a total of an additional 9db of sound. I might be mistaken on stacking them and it's only 6db of sound, but in any case it's significantly louder. I would guess getting another 112 would solve all your current problems.

 

[Rip Van Dan]

It's what's stated on the Barefaced website and I've seen numerous posts on here testifying to its accuracy

Sorry you had to find that out the hard way. It may be that under certain circumstances their claims are true but it doesn't sound like those are your circumstances. As I mentioned earlier, a second cabinet would probably solve your problems.

 

[Wicked G]

I've said it many times before, I will never get rid of my RH750 or RS210's. Not only do I love the tone, but that amp is stupid loud. Can easily keep up with my Orange, Genz Benz and Mesa heads. But I also have to add what others have stated as well, expecting a 112 cab to get as loud as a 212 regardless of wattage thrown into it isn't very realistic.