Low Down Sound Cab Club started!

[KJung]

Fair enough. I look forward to reading your reviews of the cabs you test. It wasn't my intention to upset anybody...

Again, all is cool! I again was just trying to point out that this whole thing has gotten a little confusing. The good news about all this is that crossovers can be changed and replaced pretty easily (from what I understand).

What I do know is that Don's cab construction is beautiful and first rate. Great quality and attention to detail. So, I'm convinced that he will do a great job on the physical cabs. Of course, the drivers are the drivers, so IMO the worst that happens is that a crossover point might need to be tweaked if having this cab as a 'Greenboy approved total design' is key.

All is good, and again, I am not commenting on Greenboys very cool design so much as commenting on the bit of chaos that developed hear on the crossover.

 

[rpsands]

Nah, I respect your knowledge completely. I just think poor Don, who doesn't even get onto Talkbass and had never heard of your specific design, has just landed in the middle of a confusing 'ugly sandwich' regarding the confusion of building an LDS 15/6.5 with Ralph Patterson crossover (i.e., his standard offering), or building an exactly spec'd fEarFul cab

Yeah, I am feeling kind of bad for starting a giant pain in the ass for Don - I was under the impression they had the crossover specs far further along than they did.

I think Ralf (or ralph? posts here so maybe he'll chime in at some point. I know it's their business and all, but I am not understanding the level of secrecy on crossover design here. Very frustrating to me when it takes me several emails and phone calls to find out whether they're using a low pass or not, y'know?

Given how far along some of the folks out here are in crossover design (Alex Caber for one) it seems like there's not much harm in sharing info.

 

[greenboy]

+1 Given your self described background, you would be one of the last people I would recommend trying to spec a cab out with a custom builder.

I talk specific designs and iterations with Alex Claber and Duke LeJeune and Passinwind on a regular basis. And two of those are commercial builders. And with several other designers I've met on home forums. We have no trouble discussing technical issues.

 

[KJung]

Yeah, I am feeling kind of bad for starting a giant pain in the ass for Don - I was under the impression they had the crossover specs far further along than they did.

I think Ralf (or ralph? posts here so maybe he'll chime in at some point. I know it's their business and all, but I am not understanding the level of secrecy on crossover design here. Very frustrating to me when it takes me several emails and phone calls to find out whether they're using a low pass or not, y'know?

Given how far along some of the folks out here are in crossover design (Alex Caber for one) it seems like there's not much harm in sharing info.

Again, +1. Sorry for sticking my nose in here, and I know of no 'secret info' on Don's feelings on all of this, so I'm not a spy or anything

I again am sure all this will work out, and as you know, Don is very open to tweaking things and trying things.

 

[KJung]

I talk specific designs and iterations with Alex Claber and Duke LeJeune and Passinwind on a regular basis. And two of those are commercial builders. And with several other designers I've met on home forums. We have no trouble discussing technical issues.

I was talking about one of the customers, not you guys.

Let's not further confuse the issue by taking comments out of context or attributing them to the wrong person

 

[bassplayer7770]

I was talking about one of the customers, not you guys.

Let's not further confuse the issue by taking comments out of context or attributing them to the wrong person

one of the customers = me

Like I said, though, this has been a learning experience for me, and it's never a bad thing to understand more about your equipment.

 

[greenboy]

I just think poor Don, who doesn't even get onto Talkbass and had never heard of your specific design, has just landed in the middle of a confusing 'ugly sandwich' regarding the confusion of building an LDS 15/6.5 with Ralph Patterson crossover (i.e., his standard offering), or building an exactly spec'd fEarFul cab

See, again, it's not about a flavor. I don't care what small departures in flavor of crossover guys use my cabs with. I've encouraged multiple designs by any who would like to dive in, and enjoy seeing the development. And I've as well as pointed out several satisfactory commerical generics. But: if indeed, ridiculously high crossover points are being considered, or high-pass only designs, then I feel I have to get involved just to save people from dissapointment - and the waste of two great and fairly expensive drivers.

 

[rpsands]

Again, +1. Sorry for sticking my nose in here, and I know of no 'secret info' on Don's feelings on all of this, so I'm not a spy or anything

I again am sure all this will work out, and as you know, Don is very open to tweaking things and trying things.

Yeah, I am not feeling 'screwed' or anything. This is nothing like dealing with a certain other tone physician who shall remain nameless. A little confusion, no biggie. Don has been very accessible, really pleasant to deal with, and is obviously working his tail off.

Hopefully Ralf will turn out something magical and we'll be good. As long as my cabinet doesn't buzz and rattle my amp around on top of it I'm going to be happy at this point.

 

[KJung]

one of the customers = me

Like I said, though, this has been a learning experience for me, and it's never a bad thing to understand more about your equipment.

Sorry... I keep digging myself in deeper (i.e., I wasn't calling you an idiot, I was calling that other guy an idiot). Trust me, I'm much closer in knowledge about all of this to you than I am to Greenboy!

Again, I think the great news here is, the boxes will be of the highest quality, and the worst case scenario is a simple (I think) crossover modification.

 

[KJung]

OK, back on topic. Why the hell would anyone want a two way cab without a tweeter.















(and just to make it clear... I'm poking big fun at myself)

 

[rpsands]

The problem with crossover modification is that crap ain't cheap Could easily toss and extra 50-100 bucks onto the cost of the cab to mod the xover if we have to do it after the fact.

 

[greenboy]

Hey, no sweat, Ken! Absolutely no sweat for anyone here, right? ; }

I initially stepped in because I heard some wacked-out stuff. I really don't know who said what to who and how much was misinterpretation and fact-mangled as it went back and forth, but I did want to show why you don't want a high crossover point or a HP-only. I would have thought some sense would have been made out of the pretty chart with the nice red cross-box ; }

 

[bassplayer7770]

Hey, no sweat, Ken! Absolutely no sweat for anyone here, right? ; }

I initially stepped in because I heard some wacked-out stuff. I really don't know who said what to who and how much was misinterpretation and fact-mangled as it went back and forth, but I did want to show why you don't want a high crossover point or a HP-only. I would have thought some sense would have been made out of the pretty chart with the nice red cross-box ; }

It is a very nice cross-box...

 

[Chef]

If I've read this right, and I may not have, Greenboy has said that the readily available eminence pb800 is a good choice here.

I like it that he's chimed in here to prevent people from being underwhelmed by two expensive drivers and a potentially bad crossover.

It's also good that Don/Ralf are fairly experienced-tho maybe not with this combo-which is why they're talking to nd sound as to what might be good.

GB's design has interested me since he first shared it (thanks!).

 

[Blues Cat]

Mine's in line with others that are being finished next week so I'm lurking.

I trust that Don is investigating to find out what works best and provide protection for the drivers so he doesn't get a bunch of returns.

Although the 6ND410 and the 15" KLLF combo are new to him (and would be to 99% of cab manufacturers) he loves the combination and fully embraces it's potential. We've caught him in the 1st stages of Xover development for this speaker combo.

Ken we're looking forward to your review. He said he was dropping one by you today. Is that going to happen.

I don't think that "poor Don" is accurate because he loves the challenge.

 

[greenboy]

Although the 6ND410 and the 15" KLLF combo are new to him (and would be to 99% of cab manufacturers)

Only because they are asleep at the switch ; }

And actually as I said a few posts back, when I was first waxing on the forum about this driver combination a couple years back, Don built a cab for talkbasser KINDNESS who noticed what I was talking about concerning two-ways with mids instead of tweets. He used the same drivers, and I believe a stock Em 800 Hz crossover.

The Em 500 Hz version would also work as long as the driver is in a decent closed chamber (each would sound a bit different). There are no protection issues other than severe user error {like pumping 1000 watts into the cab with treble and gain maxed;}

 

[bassplayer7770]

Only because they are asleep at the switch ; }

And actually as I said a few posts back, when I was first waxing on the forum about this driver combination a couple years back, Don built a cab for talkbasser KINDNESS who noticed what I was talking about concerning two-ways with mids instead of tweets. He used the same drivers, and I believe a stock Em 800 Hz crossover.

On HCBF, Kindness said, "Don wouldn't use the 3015LF a few years ago, neither would he use the 18 Sound midrange driver. Now he uses them both." He also later said, "In the summer of '07 I got into the discussion with Don about this design. I listened to him, allowed him to build the cab to his specs and then I rebuilt it to mine. You may like it better the way he builds it, I don't."

I assume he changed the speakers and the crossover.

 

[Chef]

potentially big assumption

 

[Kindness]

Impedance is a far more serious issue.

Having run a similar test cabinet with several woofers and midranges and crossovers and high passes, I would say that impedance and polar response are the two major issues. I used the midrange breakup as an easy example and can see how others have taken it and run.

Basically he could contact me and get a little insight.

IME he wouldn't want to listen.

Will it be better or worse?.... I don't know.

It'll be worse. I know, because I've done it both ways. I even let Don design his version as one of the test subjects several years ago. You might say, "how can someone say it is worse if it is just different?" Because it impedes performance without adding appreciable color; his version gives the added benefit of wacky impedances, poor off-axis response and a slightly more muddled upper midrange. Awesome.

He could just slot the 800 Hz Em generic in there and be done with it. It's a textbook "use 8 ohm values though the drivers are different at that frequency" crossover that sounds pretty good nonetheless and he has used it before with those two specifc drivers, for talbasser Kindness.

+1

Not ideal and will be replaced, but I'm busy on other projects. I just needed to get something in there better than the high pass Don was convinced was the solution. :scowl: For now, I'm more interested in growing my new business. Anyone need a patent lawyer?

It'll easily beat some of the alternatives I've seen mentioned, and will sound very good indeed until you actually hear a crossover that is painstakingly tailored for the specific setup. In fatc, many would hear no difference anyway.

I've had multiple people use my cabinet over the past years (since summer 2007) while I've been swapping between various crossovers/high passes and midranges and it is apparent most people hear with their eyes anyway.

My "reference cabinets" are a pair of Acme Low B2s and in time I will develop the crossover in mine to match the level of care taken in the Acmes, but the priority level on that project is pretty low.

 

[Kindness]

potentially big assumption

Except he isn't assuming since I told him that directly. He just doesn't repeat stories very clearly - even when quoting!