Low Down Sound Cab Club started!

[greenboy]

Plus, I don't recall seeing a definite answer regarding the crossover.

Actually it's been answered there, and schematics have been shared. It's also been answered in this thread.

 

[bassplayer7770]

Actually it's been answered there, and schematics have been shared. It's also been answered in this thread.

You mean a particular frequency has been agreed upon? Or just the 2-way vs. high pass circuit debate?

You did reply to one of my posts a couple pages back. You said a high pass at 1.6kHz would creep you out, and a 2-way somewhere around 600Hz would be better. Assuming Don will stick with a high pass circuit, do you feel an Eminence PXB2-800 (2-way at 800Hz) crossover would be a good choice? The last thing I want to do with my order is waste those nice 3015LF and 6ND410 speakers...

 

[bassplayer7770]

I hear an awful lot of stuff going around about these cabs and I wonder where all this info comes from and from what knowledge source. If using the 18 sound 410 ---600 hz---in my opinion, would be too low. I'm on top of this design and will tell you at this time that I 'm convinced that any cabs built will have the proper x-over and setting, and that I'm constantly tweeking them and looking to improve. Please feel confident that your cab electronics will be correct and if you doubt our design I will build it exactly as you designate, but any mods afterward will require returning the cab and additional parts and labor costs to change.

That's a direct quote from Don. I am curious about how the testing will turn out, but my cab may be on tap to begin at the end of this week, so I'm trying to figure out exactly what I want to order. I apologize for all my stupid questions...

 

[billhilly66]

That’s pretty much what Don told me on the phone yesterday. I’m frustrated as well cause I’m not hip enough to the deal to make an informed decision on my own and have to rely on those that are.

 

[rpsands]

Talked to Don myself, and I get the feeling he's starting to get a little irked with me. Meh.

Anyway, Don *is* using a low pass of some kind on the woofer, but it's closer to the 1.6khz frequency from what I could gather. He's a little cagey about crossover specs.

While Greenboy and Bill have a lot of experience here, I feel like another voice we should be listening to is Alex Caber. He's been building lots of these cabinets with a specialized crossover, and IIRC, it is somewhere around 500-600hz. What we don't know yet is how well those midranges survive in his setup.

What Don is concerned about is people blowing 130.00 midranges left and right, and I can see how that would be a concern.

What I'd love to know is how many watts @ 500hz signal a 6nd410 can take, in its fEarful-sized enclosure.


Anyway, bottom line: I am going to wait and see what Don comes up with, and I asked him to A/B it with a PXB2-800. If he doesn't come up with numbers I am happy with, I am going to order it without a crossover and wire one up myself or order one custom from someone.

 

[rpsands]

Another thing Don mentioned is that he did talk this over with 18 sound, and they're following the vendor's recommendations, whatever it is they're doing.

 

[greenboy]

Frankly he's out of his comfort zone and I wouldn't trust his knowledge. And you guys are something too. Why even go for what is essentially my design if you don't trust either the amount of text I spend explaining things in detail - or at least the decisions I've made in components and suitable crossover region? It's rather insulting. Free ride and insult the guy who provided it. Yeah, right.

It would be one thing if it were just me, but several independent parties have through testing and sim arrived at basically the same conclusions for crossover designs. EDIT: Alex Claber is one of them. He's gone through multiple iterations to arrive at a similar band.

And by the way: it's not what point you state your crossover is at. That's a vague and general description. It's more about doing though slope and overlap or underlap when useful something that falls in the region that suits the driver characteristics. Often the acoustic and electric crossover points are different and you could easily use several different numbers to describe a simple two way crossover. Anyway. Once you are in the right region, you could call it 500-600-700-800 - whatever. What's important is that you've used the drivers well and protected as much as is actually needed.

 

[KJung]

Wow, if I was Don, quite frankly, I'd return all the money and get out of this mess.

Talk about too many cooks in the kitchen, including many who can't even cook

 

[greenboy]

Wow, if I was Don, quite frankly, I'd return all the money and get out of this mess.

Talk about too many cooks in the kitchen, including many who can't even cook

Basically he could contact me and get a little insight.

 

[billhilly66]

I never intended to insult anyone. I ordered the cab with a full x-over at 650hz per the data I got from the threads here. I couldn’t find anyone to build it locally so I called Don. Now he’s questioning the x-over and I don’t have enough knowledge on the subject to counter his arguments even though I don’t find them compelling in light of the data I’ve seen posted here.

My frustration is in how do I get to where I need to be on the deal. If Don doesn’t want to do the x-over where it needs to be, I suppose I’ll get the cab sans x-over and see about having somebody build me one that will work and then figure out how to mount it.

 

[KJung]

Basically he could contact me and get a little insight.

Why? Should Jim Bergantino contact you and get a little insight.

If a customer exactly specs a design (yours or any others), Don, I'm sure can build it. If someone provides him with a drawing of a 15/6.5 box, and says 'build one', he will do that in a way that he is comfortable with, and guess what, it probably won't be exactly like one you would build. It might sound great, it might not.

Will it be better or worse?.... I don't know. Every cab sounds different, and some that seem to look great on paper sound like dog. Others, with drivers that don't seem right and tweeters crossed over at a strange point sound magic with the bass guitar in a live situations.

This is like the arguments that Food Scientists and Chef's have. Sometimes, what 'should work on paper' doesn't in a real kitchen, and what seems very strange tastes wonderful.

As far as I know, Don is building a 15/6.5 LOW DOWN SOUND cab.

 

[greenboy]

He could just slot the 800 Hz Em generic in there and be done with it. It's a textbook "use 8 ohm values though the drivers are different at that frequency" crossover that sounds pretty good nonetheless and he has used it before with those two specifc drivers, for talbasser Kindness.

It'll easily beat some of the alternatives I've seen mentioned, and will sound very good indeed until you actually hear a crossover that is painstakingly tailored for the specific setup. In fatc, many would hear no difference anyway.

 

[greenboy]

Why? Should Jim Bergantino contact you and get a little insight.

He doesn't need to. He's not confused. I see you have taken sides.

We are not talking subtle differences here, Ken. We are not talking flavors especially - or if we are, we talking some pretty crazy ones. I don't know how much miscommunication has been relayed through misunderstanding so that's why suggest direct communication.

 

[bassplayer7770]

Wow, if I was Don, quite frankly, I'd return all the money and get out of this mess.

Talk about too many cooks in the kitchen, including many who can't even cook

Regarding those that can't cook, maybe you can understand why we're a bit confused on the subject. I really appreciate the information on this site, but then, like billhilly, I can't really argue my stance with Don intelligently.

I'm sorry.

 

[rpsands]

Frankly he's out of his comfort zone and I wouldn't trust his knowledge. And you guys are something too. Why even go for what is essentially my design if you don't trust either the amount of text I spend explaining things in detail - or at least the decisions I've made in components and suitable crossover region? It's rather insulting. Free ride and insult the guy who provided it. Yeah, right.

It would be one thing if it were just me, but several independent parties have through testing and sim arrived at basically the same conclusions for crossover designs. EDIT: Alex Claber is one of them. He's gone through multiple iterations to arrive at a similar band.

And by the way: it's not what point you state your crossover is at. That's a vague and general description. It's more about doing though slope and overlap or underlap when useful something that falls in the region that suits the driver characteristics. Often the acoustic and electric crossover points are different and you could easily use several different numbers to describe a simple two way crossover. Anyway. Once you are in the right region, you could call it 500-600-700-800 - whatever. What's important is that you've used the drivers well and protected as much as is actually needed.

+1 to Billhilly below. No one's trying to insult anyone - we're trying to convince Don of your crossover specs and do it coherently without wasting too much of anyone's time, or making a mess of our cabinets.

I've been through the thread and the wiki extensively and I haven't seen much talk about the 15/6 crossover design other than frequency ranges (500-800hz) - the only schematics and parts discussions I've seen are for the 12/6, which I believe is different, right? My understanding from reading the thread is that every driver has to be matched up.

Am I reading something wrong? Can the 12/6 crossover be used for the 15/6 (with a smaller pad)?

 

[KJung]

Regarding those that can't cook, maybe you can understand why we're a bit confused on the subject. I really appreciate the information on this site, but then, like billhilly, I can't really argue my stance with Don intelligently.

I'm sorry.

+1 Given your self described background, you would be one of the last people I would recommend trying to spec a cab out with a custom builder.

No offense to anyone here, including my buddy Greenboy, who I'm sure has designed a beautiful cab.

My feeling is, if you want Don to make a cab to Greenboy's exact specifications, then he should be given the exact specifications, including the exact brand and tuning of the crossover. He would have no problem with that. However, if you just spec out a basic cab design, guess what, Don will put his 'stamp and approach' on it as would any other builder. That might be a positive or a negative to your ears, depending on your tone goals.

 

[Chef]

Moderator Eyeballs On:
Play politely people.

thanks

 

[rpsands]

I'm fine with that and so is everyone else, but when your basic spec is "around an 800hz crossover" and he tells you he's using a "1.6khz high pass only" you can see why people would be concerned.

Turns out he's not using a high pass, but his crossover frequency might be a bit high, and so we're working with him on it.

 

[KJung]

He doesn't need to. He's not confused. I see you have taken sides.

We are not talking subtle differences here, Ken. We are not talking flavors especially - or if we are, we talking some pretty crazy ones. I don't know how much miscommunication has been relayed through misunderstanding so that's why suggest direct communication.

Nah, I respect your knowledge completely. I just think poor Don, who doesn't even get onto Talkbass and had never heard of your specific design, has just landed in the middle of a confusing 'ugly sandwich' regarding the confusion of building an LDS 15/6.5 with Ralph Patterson crossover (i.e., his standard offering), or building an exactly spec'd fEarFul cab

 

[bassplayer7770]

+1 Given your self described background, you would be one of the last people I would recommend trying to spec a cab out with a custom builder.

No offense to anyone here, including my buddy Greenboy, who I'm sure has designed a beautiful cab.

My feeling is, if you want Don to make a cab to Greenboy's exact specifications, then he should be given the exact specifications, including the exact brand and tuning of the crossover. He would have no problem with that. However, if you just spec out a basic cab design, guess what, Don will put his 'stamp and approach' on it as would any other builder. That might be a positive or a negative to your ears, depending on your tone goals.

Fair enough. I look forward to reading your reviews of the cabs you test. It wasn't my intention to upset anybody...