Low Down Sound Club, Part Four

[CL400Peavey]

If it was my money I would go with two 15PR400's as I am familiar with that driver. Mirrored 12's with the FH or a sub built around that driver paired with a cab with the same driver and a mid driver may work too. I am not familiar with that drivers performance, so it would need some more investigation on my part.

 

[iualum]

So if you were gonna change one or both of the drivers, keeping the goal of a 12" cab and a 15" cab, what would you suggest? Or are you saying matching a 12 to a 15 is always a bad idea?

No, I'm not saying a 12" & 15" is always bad. What I am saying is that in almost all cases, if someone wants 2 boxes, identical 12s or 15s (in your case) are almost always a superior choice.

This has been mentioned, but the 15PR400 isn't a sub/Low-Frequency driver. It's full-range. It's a fine one, one of the best, but not a sub/LF. Did Don mention this to you? I hope so, but if not, well...

Also, if you're doing custom cabs (whatever they end up being) why in the world would you not spec all the drivers? Why leave any driver up to the builder's whim? If you have no idea at all, O.K., ask for suggestions. Great. But then research them. And research others also. Maybe ask question here on TB, too. Do some homework. Come to your own conclusions. If you're torn between a couple competing choices, then maybe ask the builder for his opinion.

And another point, you say you want 4 ohm cabs to get the full 600 RMS/side from your ShuttleMax 12.2. You do know, right, that the 12FH500 is rated @ 500 RMS & the 15PR400 is rated @ 400 RMS?

If you want a 15" sub/LF, look at the Eminence 3015LF. Or, if you want to stay Faital, maybe consider the 15HP1010 . Both would be 8 ohm cabs, though. But potential volume between 4 ohm & 8 ohm cabs is minimal.
http://www.usspeaker.com/Kappa Lite-3015lf-1.htm
http://www.usspeaker.com/faital pro 15hp1010-1.htm

I'd probably do one of two things:

A. Faital 15PR400 or Eminence 3015 (non-LF) cabs. I'd run a Selenium D220Ti High Frequency driver w/Selenium horn (I'd do the HM25-25) in one or both. I'd include a switch to defeat the HF, if desired, so that the cab(s) could be run as a 1-way (15PR400 or 3015, full-range only) or 2-way (crossing over to the D220Ti @ ~ 2kHz). I'd likely do the Eminence.
http://www.parts-express.com/selenium-d220ti-1-titanium-horn-driver-8-ohm-1-3-8-18--264-270
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B. Eminence 3015LF cabs w/Eminence AlphaLite 6As (add the Selenium if you want a 3-way) or one cab w/3015LF only & the other 3015LF cab w/18Sound 6ND410 or Faital M5N8-80 (again, add the Selenium if you want a 3-way). I'd probably do the 18Sound. You might want to again install the defeat switch so that you could run the cab with the 3015LF only (40Hz-1.5kHz). That would certainly give you a different tone possibility (a big one).
http://www.usspeaker.com/alphalite6a-1.htm
http://www.usspeaker.com/eighteensound-6ND410-1.htm
http://www.usspeaker.com/faital pro m5n8-80-1.htm

 

[johndough247]

Thanks for your opinions and all that info CL400Peavey and iualum; it's definitely food for thought and will take those options into careful consideration...but you're right; after weighing all the pros and cons so far, I am starting to think I'll be better off overall with sticking to 8 ohm drivers.

Also, if you're doing custom cabs (whatever they end up being) why in the world would you not spec all the drivers? Why leave any driver up to the builder's whim?

The reason I didn't spec all the drivers is even though something might look good to my (amateur) eyes on paper, there might be a variable or two (or ten) I hadn't accounted for that someone with way more experience might pick up on...thus, if I suggest certain drivers to a builder that I've never heard or used before, he might be inclined to believe that that's where my tonal preferences are and/or will structure his answers and follow-up questions around the premise of "that's in the ballpark of what the customer wants"...I didn't want that, that's way too many assumptions from both parties (although that's basically what happened when I mentioned I thought a 12" cab and a 15" cab might be a good idea for the stack). So just like I wouldn't go to Roger Sadowsky, for example, and suggest (nevermind order him) to use this specific wood/pickup/pots/wire without any first-hand experience with those options AND no bass building/electronics experience, I asked Don for suggestions based on the things I do know and have experienced. I don't think I was wrong in that approach, but I could be mistaken.

If you have no idea at all, O.K., ask for suggestions. Great. But then research them. And research others also. Maybe ask question here on TB also. Do some homework. Come to your own conclusions. If you're torn between a couple competing choices, then maybe ask the builder for his opinion.

Yea...that's what I've been doing and what I was doing (or what I thought I was doing) when I posted the specs to this thread. Even though I paid the deposit, I still have a week or two until parts need to be ordered for my build, so I figured if anybody thought it wouldn't work they would say what it was and hopefully why. I had also asked a few TB'ers (including one or two known builders) via PM about their experiences with certain cabs and drivers and took that into consideration (well, the ones that bothered to reply at least). I've been looking up specs on fEARfuls, "nEARfuls" and other production cabs for well over a year now...not to mention the only cab I have extensive experience with is my current (now recently sold) cabs: the Aguilar SL112. Look at my location (not the Florida one): for those of you who haven't lived in this area of the planet, quality music gear, that you didn't order from another country yourself, is scarce to non-existent...so word-of-mouth is all I have to go on (and the few years I spent in the US in college trying out stuff). That's why I was a little surprised and disappointed when the worst was assumed of me from jump street: that I had done zero research and/or I was telling Don exactly what to do. I did arrive at my own conclusions, which apparently didn't line up with what you might have concluded...but that's where my mindset of "trust those with more experience AND a proven track record in his/her field" came into play. I don't think I was wrong in that approach, but I could be mistaken.

Also, I may have misused the word "sub" in this situation...what I meant was looking more for a 2nd cab to add more overall volume and a touch more low end to cab 1 when stacked (but not ONLY low end, like a traditional sub would imply) so that's my fault there.

Water under the bridge etc, etc...but seriously, thanks again for the detailed info and suggestions.

Cab 1: 15/6/1 @ 8 Ohms

• Faital 15PR400 Bass driver
• Faital M5N8-80 Mids
• Eminence ASD-1001 Tweeter
• L-Pad on both mids and tweet

Cab 2: 15" one way @ 8 Ohms

• Faital 15PR400

Amp puts out 375 Watts to each cab @ 8 Ohms. Opinions?

 

[CL400Peavey]

Imho, skip the mid drivers.

 

[johndough247]

Imho, skip the mid drivers.

Why? Even if there's an L-pad on it?

 

[CL400Peavey]

Why? Even if there's an L-pad on it?

The 15PR400 isn't a sub woofer. It is a full range driver and has amazing mids of its own. No reason to cover them up with a mid driver.

 

[ehque]

Anyone has experience with a LDS vertical 4x8 or can tell me what to expect?

Thinking of getting two and stacking vertically.

Would load in like this if the handles were on the back of each cab - that would be a one-trip load in.

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[iualum]

The 15PR400 isn't a sub woofer. It is a full range driver and has amazing mids of its own. No reason to cover them up with a mid driver.

Yes. Forget the mid with this 15. A dedicated mid is to add content where there is currently little. If you want the mid (& it's a super one), do the 3015LF.

 

[iualum]

Anyone has experience with a LDS vertical 4x8 or can tell me what to expect?

Thinking of getting two and stacking vertically.

Would load in like this if the handles were on the back of each cab - that would be a one-trip load in.

Invalid Link Removed

You mean you'll stack one 4x8 on top of the other? If so, that might be livin' just a little dangerously. Which 8s did you have in mind, the mighty 8PR200?

 

[johndough247]

Yes. Forget the mid with this 15. A dedicated mid is to add content where there is currently little. If you want the mid (& it's a super one), do the 3015LF.

Thanks guys, will take this under advisement

 

[ehque]

You mean you'll stack one 4x8 on top of the other? If so, that might be livin' just a little dangerously. Which 8s did you have in mind, the mighty 8PR200?

Yeap, I wanna stack the 2 into a vertical 8x8 line array, hopefully with some sort of locking system so I can lock both cabs into one unit. There's not much movement on the stages I play on and toppling it should not be a concern.

I was under the impression Don has his favourite 8s that he will use. How do the different 8s differ from each other? I'm thinking I'll need a fair amount of displacement.

 

[Chef]

Another round of gigs with this, Friday, Sat/Monday.
Bass bag on my shoulder, MBF800 in it's bag on the cab; cab on wheels.
Roll into the club, kill-kill-kill; roll back out in one easy trip.
Great cab.

I could put the 12/6/1 on top, but so far, this cab on it's own has been plenty.

Here's the current 15/6/1

 

[johndough247]

Did some more reading up on the 3015LF and 15PR400...looking at the specs of each, the Faital has a lower resonant frequency and seems to be louder in the low end (100 hz and below) when comparing frequency response charts. Can these charts be compared even though they are from different manufacturers? Wouldn't the enclosure size and design impact the response charts (i.e. Do they all test using the same size enclosure)?

Also read some threads comparing the two 15's...3015 is mostly described as having tighter lows and more aggressive mids than the Faital, or the Faitals having a little dip in the mids but fuller "plush" lows compared to the 3015. Need some clarification with these two descriptions:

Tighter lows would be like (extreme example) the difference between the low B on a Dingwall with rounds compared to the low B on a Fender with flats? If so, is this a common trade off amongst driver designs (either fat and not as defined or tight and articulate in the low end)?

If the mids on the Faital are a little more reserved/not as aggressive than the eminence, then I'm a bit confused as to why the 3015 (with the aggressive mids) would pair well with a mid driver when the Faital (with the sweet, but more reserved mids) would benefit less from a mid driver...help?

 

[Chef]

the 3015LF is not a stand alone driver; it's a sub.

the 3015 is a full range driver, and can be used alone.

 

[CL400Peavey]

You need to look at the 3015LF, not the 3015.

 

[iualum]

Yeap, I wanna stack the 2 into a vertical 8x8 line array, hopefully with some sort of locking system so I can lock both cabs into one unit. There's not much movement on the stages I play on and toppling it should not be a concern.

I was under the impression Don has his favourite 8s that he will use. How do the different 8s differ from each other? I'm thinking I'll need a fair amount of displacement.

If toppling shouldn't be a concern, then good. But with a thin 8-driver-tall array (total ~70"?), it would always be a concern of mine. I've toyed with the idea of 2x8s & 4x8s, but have always gone w/15s & 12s simply due to bang-for-the-buck economics. They get me to where I want to go for far less bread.

Don may very well have his favorite (you misspelled the word ... I jest) 8s, but if I was doing a custom cab (& I've done a couple), I'd never leave the driver choices up to the builder's whim/preference. I'd know exactly what I wanted beforehand. If you want to ask for his opinion, great. But you need other opinions as well & you need to research on your own to come to your own conclusions. At least that's my take.

How do 8s differ from one another? In every way that 10s, 12s, 15s, etc... differ from one another, that's how. Frequency response, RMS rating, voice coil diameter, sensitivity/SPL, Xmax/displacement, & resonance frequency, to name probably the most important ones.

Here's a super speaker site, U.S. Speaker... http://www.usspeaker.com/homepage.htm

Here's the 8" page... http://www.usspeaker.com/6&8.htm

Here are the 4 best 8s im(very)ho . None inexpensive. And when there are 8 of them, pretty gosh-darned expensive!
Ciare NDC8-3. [Invalid or Expired Link Removed]
Faital Pro W8N8-200. http://www.usspeaker.com/faital pro w8n8200-1.htm
Faital Pro 8PR200. http://www.usspeaker.com/faital pro 8pr200-1.htm
18Sound 8CX400F. [Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

Displacement. You're right. There's no replacement . With 15s (Eminence 3015 or Faital Pro 15PR400) you're in the same basic displacement ballpark (pitch?) with a single driver vs. four 8s (the four 8s are greater, the Ciare significantly greater, but at a much greater price).
http://www.usspeaker.com/Kappa Lite-3015-1.htm
http://www.usspeaker.com/faital pro 15PR400-1.htm

And food for thought. You want real (all things considered, reasonably-priced) super displacement? Try on a Faital Pro 18FH500 for size. Throw in a midrange (Faital M5N8-80 or 18Sound 6 ND410, for instance), & you've got a 118 monster displacement box for max $500 in driver costs vs min $640 to max $880 driver costs on a single 4x8.
http://www.usspeaker.com/faital pro 18FH500-1.htm
http://www.usspeaker.com/faital pro m5n8-80-1.htm
http://www.usspeaker.com/eighteensound-6ND410-1.htm

 

[iualum]

You need to look at the 3015LF, not the 3015.

Did some more reading up on the 3015LF and 15PR400...looking at the specs of each, the Faital has a lower resonant frequency and seems to be louder in the low end (100 hz and below) when comparing frequency response charts. Can these charts be compared even though they are from different manufacturers? Wouldn't the enclosure size and design impact the response charts (i.e. Do they all test using the same size enclosure)?

Also read some threads comparing the two 15's...3015 is mostly described as having tighter lows and more aggressive mids than the Faital, or the Faitals having a little dip in the mids but fuller "plush" lows compared to the 3015. Need some clarification with these two descriptions:

Tighter lows would be like (extreme example) the difference between the low B on a Dingwall with rounds compared to the low B on a Fender with flats? If so, is this a common trade off amongst driver designs (either fat and not as defined or tight and articulate in the low end)?

If the mids on the Faital are a little more reserved/not as aggressive than the eminence, then I'm a bit confused as to why the 3015 (with the aggressive mids) would pair well with a mid driver when the Faital (with the sweet, but more reserved mids) would benefit less from a mid driver...help?

It's the 3015 that has the aggressive mids (& it does), not the 3015LF. The 3015LF is the driver you want if you intend to use a dedicated mid.

Again, both the 3015 & 15PR400 are simply wonderful full-range/stand alone drivers. All things considered, probably the 2 best offerings available today. Just different flavors. Add a high frequency speaker/tweeter to either, if you like, but not a mid-range.

 

[johndough247]

AHHHH ok sorry my mistake.

Tighter lows would be like (extreme example) the difference between the low B on a Dingwall with rounds compared to the low B on a Fender with flats? If so, is this a common trade off amongst driver designs (either fat and not as defined or tight and articulate in the low end)?

Still curious about these questions though as I hear the term "tight" being passed around a lot here.

 

[Jeff Scott]

Ciare NDC8-3. [Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

I have a 2-8 cabinet Don built for me with this driver.

 

[ehque]

I have a 2-8 cabinet Don built for me with this driver.

How is it? Do you use it with any mid/tweeter?

I don't see how the increased power handling justifies the loss in efficiency over the 8PR200, so I'll probably go with that. 104db per watt and 1600W power handling (for a 8x8) seems enough, or possibly too much.