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Low Down Sound Club, Part Four

#923
So shortly before Don went on vacation late last month, I had an exchange with him about ordering a new pair of 1x12 cabs: a three-way 1x12 with midrange driver + tweeter, plus a 1x12 subwoofer. Dimensions approximately 16"H x 20" W x 18" D. Weight approximately 45 pounds, give or take. Heavy-duty black Tolex, heavy-duty black plastic stacking corners, a recessed bar handle on each end, L-pads for both the midrange and the tweet, black metal grills, and parallel Speakon jacks on the rear.

I specified that I want ferrite woofers for these boxes. I'm looking for a very solid modern rock sound, in a compact, modular package that can play reasonably loud for up to 250-300 people, yet still handle the low "B" at volume. Tone profile: Deep, solid, balanced & punchy. Lots of modern clarity, but with nice phat smoothness in the mid-bass to low midrange. Powerful lows that stay tight and defined. Mids that are present and can growl nicely, without getting too aggressive or "ganky". Highs that are sweet and smooth, without sounding harsh or tinny.

I'm going to drive these babies with either a GK 700RB-II or an Eden Nemesis RS700 (will get an M-Pulse 600 and a GBE 750 later).

Don suggested the relatively new (introduced at 2014 winter NAMM) Eminence Delta 12-450A woofer:

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The specs look good. Anyone got any hands-on experience with this one yet?

MM
 
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#924
That looks really nice. I think I would just use two of those in a single cab with the smoothest tweet I could find and be done with it. Really. I think folks are going to be happier as the speakers continue getting better and they stop trying to make 3-way cabs growl like standard bass cabs because, they arent really supposed to if designed "properly". I got some out of my mid loaded 2x12 but, not without breaking some rules. And, it still didnt tickle me like any of my 1-way cabs do. Just my 2 cents.
 
#925
kringle77 said:
That looks really nice. I think I would just use two of those in a single cab with the smoothest tweet I could find and be done with it. Really. I think folks are going to be happier as the speakers continue getting better and they stop trying to make 3-way cabs growl like standard bass cabs because, they arent really supposed to if designed "properly". I got some out of my mid loaded 2x12 but, not without breaking some rules. And, it still didnt tickle me like any of my 1-way cabs do. Just my 2 cents.
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I get what you're saying. A few reasons why I'm not going that way however: For one thing I live in NYC, where portability is everything. A pair of 45-pound 1x12s is doable. A 75-pound 2x12? Not so much. Since my spine injury and subsequent surgery a few years ago, my doctors have advised me to be very careful about not lifting too much weight. Forty-five pounds is pushing the limit for me, even with use of a hand cart. Can't be taking chances with my spine beyond that.

As for the configuration and components, while the Delta Pro 12-450A seems to have decent midrange, I'm concerned mostly with off-axis dispersion. One of the many things I learned from Bill Fitzmaurice while he was here, is that 12-inch woofers start to beam above 1,000 Hz, so it's helpful to cross over to a small dedicated midrange driver no higher than 1.5 kHz - 2.0 kHz. I assume the Delta Pro 12-450A in the separate subwoofer cab would likely operate full range, though I have yet to confer with Don on that particular point. Presumably the subwoofer could provide much of the growl then.

MM
 
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#926
I totally get all that. I play alot of small clubs where people are right in front of my amps dancing and therefore nullifiying any off axis advantage I was getting from a mid-loaded cab. I found that I prefered the tone of a one way cab and now use my di signal with lows rolled off run FOH to just get alittle clarity up over peoples bodies. That works way better. Those 12's look really good.
 
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#927
kringle77 said:
I totally get all that. I play alot of small clubs where people are right in front of my amps dancing and therefore nullifiying any off axis advantage I was getting from a mid-loaded cab. I found that I prefered the tone of a one way cab and now use my di signal with lows rolled off run FOH to just get alittle clarity up over peoples bodies. That works way better. Those 12's look really good.
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Ya know, the more I think of it, the more I think you have a very good point here. I'm not going for a hi-fi thing, after all. I want a pair of rock-voiced cabs that can growl and snarl, with good balance and clarity, but not too polite.

Since the 450As already have abundant midrange content, it would be a shame to eliminate that output entirely by crossing over completely to a dedicated midrange driver, at least at a low frequency point. In another thread, Duke LeJeune has stated that 1 kHz - 2 kHz provides an ideal frequency range for bass to slot into, for an aggressive sound against high-gain guitars. So maybe it would be feasible to operate both woofers full range, while simultaneously using a dedicated midrange driver just to broaden the off-axis listening field - as long there isn't any phase cancellation or other nasty stuff. Or maybe take your suggestion to just skip the midrange driver, and use a smooth tweeter instead - especially one that's crossed over rather low. There's gotta be a good way to achieve good off-axis performance...without sacrificing the punchy midrange of these woofers.

MM
 
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#928
Mystic Michael said:
Since the 450As already have abundant midrange content, it would be a shame to eliminate that output entirely by crossing over completely to a dedicated midrange driver, at least at a low frequency point. In another thread, Duke LeJeune has stated that 1 kHz - 2 kHz provides an ideal frequency range for bass to slot into, for an aggressive sound against high-gain guitars. So maybe it would be feasible to operate both woofers full range, while simultaneously using a dedicated midrange driver just to broaden the off-axis listening field - as long there isn't any phase cancellation or other nasty stuff. Or maybe take your suggestion to just skip the midrange driver, and use a smooth tweeter instead - especially one that's crossed over rather low. There's gotta be a good to achieve good off-axis performance...without sacrificing the punchy midrange of these woofers.

MM
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I know I'm gonna get slammed for this, but, I have found that, after trying some designs with mid drivers, I prefer the sound I get with a tweeter. There is something about letting some drivers do their thing at full range, and just having a high passed tweeter for some high end sizzle and air. Of course, if you are using a driver like the 3015LF, not a good idea at all, but, I have a Greenboy Bassic 15, with the Faital and it just about covers the full range of tone that I am looking for. A tweeter would be the cherry on top with this cab.
 
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#929
jnewmark said:
I know I'm gonna get slammed for this, but, I have found that, after trying some designs with mid drivers, I prefer the sound I get with a tweeter. There is something about letting some drivers do their thing at full range, and just having a high passed tweeter for some high end sizzle and air. Of course, if you are using a driver like the 3015LF, not a good idea at all, but, I have a Greenboy Bassic 15, with the Faital and it just about covers the full range of tone that I am looking for. A tweeter would be the cherry on top with this cab.
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Well, I think that's a very valid view & that there's a lot to be said for it. My LDS 215 employs 3015s & cross over to a Selenium D220Ti @ 2 kHz. Love it, as in love it :woot: .

Selenium D220Ti 1" Titanium Horn Driver 8 Ohm 1-3/8"-18
 
#930
FWIW, I'm seeing that 2.0 kHz full-range woofer to tweeter crossover point being referenced a lot around here. Or at least the range of 2.0 kHz - 2.5 kHz.

That crossover frequency is a lot lower than what I've observed in most conventional commercial cabs. But if the tweeter is high quality and is designed to be robust enough to handle much of the upper midrange above 2.0 kHz, along with the usual high frequencies above 4.0 kHz or so, then hey, great. I categorize it as yet another factoid I've picked up by lurking in the Amps forum. ;)

MM
 
#932
iualum said:
Well, I think that's a very valid view & that there's a lot to be said for it. My LDS 215 employs 3015s & cross over to a Selenium D220Ti @ 2 kHz. Love it, as in love it :woot: .

Selenium D220Ti 1" Titanium Horn Driver 8 Ohm 1-3/8"-18
Click to expand...

I also have an LDS cab, 212 ( 3012HO's ), crossed over to an 18Sound, XD125 tweet, with a JBL Waveguide (90 degrees ). Everything is vertically loaded, including the tweeter. Handles a lot of loud gigs !
 
#933
I lole the woofers run fullrange to get all the character. For added top end or dispersion, use a mid or really nice tweet. A mid crossed at 800 or 1600. Or a tweet crossed at 3.5k. Really, in a live environment with people and other obstacles around, alot of that 3-way dispersion is wasted. Just vertically stack the 12's. That will get all the important frequencies out there.
 
#934
The new LDS (2) 1x12 project is taking shape. Latest choice is to just run both the woofers full range, adding a small-diameter mid/high frequency cone driver with a high pass filter for better dispersion, probably set around 1.5 kHz or so.

Driver of choice is the Faital 4FE35. The Faital in each cab will be configured so that both will line up closely and vertically when the cabs are stacked. I'm liking this. :)

MM
 
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#939
LDSCAB.png


Finally got the cab! It sounds great. Just got it tonight so not much experience with it yet, but so far so good!
 
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