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Low Down Sound Club: V2

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#781
KJung said:
Whew! OK, here is a GOOOOOOOD one! This is a 1212/6/1 with the 3012LF's, the 18Sound 6.5 mid driver (800hz), and my new favorite, the Eminence 1001 Titanium tweeter (4K).... Ralf Patterson custom crossover.

First, while the Selenium Don uses in many cabs is awesome in its own right, I (and others) thought that tweeter was a bit too aggressive and sizzly in the context of the warm, fat, smooth tone of these particular cabs with the mid driver. The Eminence is a bit lower db but also seems smoother and a bit more organic. I love it, Don loves it, Ralf loves it!

Red... RED!!!!! I love it. Again, the Puma500 ROCKS with this cab, and at 4ohms, it really rocks.

I am uploading a clip as we speak (I'll post a link in an hour or so, or you can just click on my link in my sig later today if you want to hear it with the Sadowsky), and you will hear the amazing low end... NO compression or drop-off all the way down to the open B. This cab is a touch under 70 pounds, and sounds like it should weigh 200!
Click to expand...

Actually The crossover from the mid to the horn is at 3500hz. I still love the Selenium horn, but the ASD1001 is very smooth and blends well with the 18 Sound. Personally, I'll take a pair of the 3012LFs over one 3015LF any day. They have low end for days! I think Don brought my 2 way 212 over to your house. It had the ASD1001 on a huge wave guide crossed over at about 1800 hz. I built myself a pair of them because my band is so loud. I've never had to use them together. I only take one to the gig along with my 210 wedge and that's all I ever need! The other one just stays at our rehearsal space.

Ralf
 
#782
rpatter said:
Actually The crossover from the mid to the horn is at 3500hz. I still love the Selenium horn, but the ASD1001 is very smooth and blends well with the 18 Sound. Personally, I'll take a pair of the 3012LFs over one 3015LF any day. They have low end for days! I think Don brought my 2 way 212 over to your house. It had the ASD1001 on a huge wave guide crossed over at about 1800 hz. I built myself a pair of them because my band is so loud. I've never had to use them together. I only take one to the gig along with my 210 wedge and that's all I ever need! The other one just stays at our rehearsal space.

Ralf
Click to expand...

Hey Ralf, thanks for the clarification on the tweeter crossover... Don wasn't exactly sure where you put it, and thought 4K. I tell you what, that crossover and tweeter (and mid driver) sounded GREAT to me, and please remember what you did with this one, since that is the exact circuit and tweeter I spec'd for my 12/6/1. Great job... very smooth and a nice, transparent feel (as you can hopefully hear in my clip) from the woofer to the mid driver to the tweeter. As you dial each one in, it just sounds like the woofer expanding in the upper end, versus 'now the mid driver is in' and 'now the tweeter is in'. That's the way its supposed to work!

Edit: Yes, I had the pleasure of playing the cab you mention above... BIG low end!!!!
 
#783
Yeah, I've spent a lot of time recently refining that crossover. I think it's pretty well dialed in now. As happy as I am with my 2 way 212, I'm getting really close to the point of building myself a 3 way version using the new Alphalite 6" mid.

Ralf

KJung said:
Hey Ralf, thanks for the clarification on the tweeter crossover... Don wasn't exactly sure where you put it, and thought 4K. I tell you what, that crossover and tweeter (and mid driver) sounded GREAT to me, and please remember what you did with this one, since that is the exact circuit and tweeter I spec'd for my 12/6/1. Great job... very smooth and a nice, transparent feel (as you can hopefully hear in my clip) from the woofer to the mid driver to the tweeter. As you dial each one in, it just sounds like the woofer expanding in the upper end, versus 'now the mid driver is in' and 'now the tweeter is in'. That's the way its supposed to work!

Edit: Yes, I had the pleasure of playing the cab you mention above... BIG low end!!!!
Click to expand...
 
#784
rpatter said:
Actually The crossover from the mid to the horn is at 3500hz. I still love the Selenium horn, but the ASD1001 is very smooth and blends well with the 18 Sound. Personally, I'll take a pair of the 3012LFs over one 3015LF any day. They have low end for days! I think Don brought my 2 way 212 over to your house. It had the ASD1001 on a huge wave guide crossed over at about 1800 hz. I built myself a pair of them because my band is so loud. I've never had to use them together. I only take one to the gig along with my 210 wedge and that's all I ever need! The other one just stays at our rehearsal space.

Ralf
Click to expand...

I hadn't even thought of trying a 212 3012LF. I wonder what that sounds like.

I've been using my VT Bass much more than I ever thought I would, to the point where my DB750 is just sitting in my room. Maybe the weight difference? :) Yes, that's it. But I think I remember somewhere in this thread someone suggesting or flat-out saying that they didn't like the way the VT bass sounded through these type cabs. (I hope I'm not misrepresenting what someone said.)
 
#785
OrionManMatt said:
I hadn't even thought of trying a 212 3012LF. I wonder what that sounds like.

I've been using my VT Bass much more than I ever thought I would, to the point where my DB750 is just sitting in my room. Maybe the weight difference? :) Yes, that's it. But I think I remember somewhere in this thread someone suggesting or flat-out saying that they didn't like the way the VT bass sounded through these type cabs. (I hope I'm not misrepresenting what someone said.)
Click to expand...

Basically, from my A/Bing, obviously the 212 version is going to sound bigger and deeper and louder than the 115, especially if your amp is sensitive to impedance (i.e., not a tube amp), putting out more power at 4ohms.

Of course, the 212 is a bigger, heavier box, but it puts out bigger, heavier sound, and just screams with the micro amp thing, whereas the typical 300 watts or so coming from most moderately powered solid state heads into 8ohms is a bit of a waste, given the capability of the 15/6 to take quite a bit of power.

I would think the VT type thing would sound great with a two way version of either model. You probably wouldn't want a tweeter if that more wooly warm tone with a touch of overdrive is what you were going for.
 
#786
KJung said:
Basically, from my A/Bing, obviously the 212 version is going to sound bigger and deeper and louder than the 115, especially if your amp is sensitive to impedance (i.e., not a tube amp), putting out more power at 4ohms.

Of course, the 212 is a bigger, heavier box, but it puts out bigger, heavier sound, and just screams with the micro amp thing, whereas the typical 300 watts or so coming from most moderately powered solid state heads into 8ohms is a bit of a waste, given the capability of the 15/6 to take quite a bit of power.

I would think the VT type thing would sound great with a two way version of either model. You probably wouldn't want a tweeter if that more wooly warm tone with a touch of overdrive is what you were going for.
Click to expand...

Just as an FYI, that 212 of mine that you tried out is 8 ohm. Don't ask me where I got the two 4ohm 3012LFs to build it though. If I told you, I'd have to kill you! ;)
 
#787
OrionManMatt said:
I think I remember somewhere in this thread someone suggesting or flat-out saying that they didn't like the way the VT bass sounded through these type cabs. (I hope I'm not misrepresenting what someone said.)
Click to expand...

KJung said:
Of course, the 212 is a bigger, heavier box, but it puts out bigger, heavier sound, and just screams with the micro amp thing, whereas the typical 300 watts or so coming from most moderately powered solid state heads into 8ohms is a bit of a waste, given the capability of the 15/6 to take quite a bit of power.

I would think the VT type thing would sound great with a two way version of either model. You probably wouldn't want a tweeter if that more wooly warm tone with a touch of overdrive is what you were going for.
Click to expand...

Having tried out my 15/6 with a few different heads (GK 1001RB-II - which sounded pretty good, Markbass LMII, T.C. RH450, Aguilar AG500) I'd agree with Ken. All sounded good, but you really need more wattage to bring out the potential of that cab. A 4 ohm 212 sounds like a better idea with lower wattage heads. And as always, I'll plug the TecAmp Puma 1000 for use with a 15/6. Great combo.

As for the VT Bass, I can't speak for other fEarful designs, but it sounds great through the 15/6. I don't have a tweeter and the highs from the VT bass can get very clanky, especially with a horn but for me the fEarful is an ideal design for effects. All of mine sound better with this cab than others I've tried, including the VT Bass.
 
#788
rpatter said:
Just as an FYI, that 212 of mine that you tried out is 8 ohm. Don't ask me where I got the two 4ohm 3012LFs to build it though. If I told you, I'd have to kill you! ;)
Click to expand...

Interesting! That was a smooth sounding cab, and I do remember us thinking that it was a relatively low SPL cab... I attributed that to the low end, not the impedance, since we assumed it was 4ohm.

Duke (Audiokinesis) has a 4ohm 3012LF 'custom' OEM spec that he is using in his single 112 cab. I have one of those on order to check out. I believe he kind of shifted up the frequency response so that his version of the LF kind of sits between the stock LF and non LF models (I believe Andy at Acme has a similar 3012LF custom spec for his soon to be released 112 two way cab), and then is using a big PA type horn crossed over at around 2K or so (I think)... so not that different from your 212 cab I guess.

I have a three way 112 coming from Don eventually, with hopefully your crossover, the Eminence tweeter and the Faital mid driver, which seems to match up with a single 12 a touch better than the very powerful, high SPL 18Sound, which seems to work great with the 212.

K
 
#789
I was the one who disliked the VT into a 15/6/1. The frequency response of the VT was much more narrow than the 15/6/1 seemed to want. On top of that, the VT has pretty aggressive upper mids. Couple that with the huge amount of sound coming off the 6ND410 mid driver and I found myself having to dial out tons of midrange, or dialing the midrange L-pad way down. Doing either solved the problem, but left me with a tone that I found to be rather indistinct and lacking in any "personality" due to the lack of midrange.

It works great for others, just not for me. I've switched to a Tecamp Puma1000 and couldn't be happier.
 
#790
silky smoove said:
It works great for others, just not for me. I've switched to a Tecamp Puma1000 and couldn't be happier.
Click to expand...

I love this combo too. And I do hear what you're saying about the VT Bass having a "narrower" tone because of the rolloff of highs and lows.

To me, the VT Bass sounds the same through the vast majority of rigs, but with the 15/6 it is just much more noticeable that the lows are rolled off because the fEarful has such great low end extension.

Where I used to like dialing in a B-15 type tone with the Tech 21, now I find I like using the Puma 1000 to get in the ballpark and then add just a bit of hair with the Creation Audio Holy Fire for a warm, round, old school tone. It gives me the vintage vibe but with MUCH better low end.
 
#791
Yep - I find the VT a bit thin on a full frontal nudity cab like the 15/6 - but it can be fattened up if you feel the need. I doubt I would notice/care on a lesser cab. My biggest gripe is that the damn knob ranges are so sensitive its sometimes hard for my fumble fingers to dial in just so.
 
#792
On conventional 2-way/ported cabinets like my old Schroeder 15L+'s or the time I got to try it with a Bergantino AE410 I like the VT a lot. With a sealed, tweeterless design, like the Bergantino NV610 I recently tried it with, I absolutely LOVE the VT.

That doesn't surprise me given its design intent. Through the Berg NV610 being powered by a Pignose tube power stage with the VT replacing that amp's front end it was absolute vintage tone euphoria. So incredible.

Through my fEarful'esque 15/6/1 it just felt limiting with the high and low rolloff. Couple that with the aggressive upper mids (which, again, work great with a sealed/tweeterless design) and the fact that the VT doesn't have a lot of precision with its control of the midrange and the combination just didn't work for me.
 
#793
Yup. LDS 15/9 loves lots of juice, just as Ukiah has posted before with his QSC/Shuttle 12 rack. IME M9 through LDS 15/6 is like vintage Fonseca port: an iron fist in a velvet glove:p
 
#794
Jared Lash said:
I love this combo too. And I do hear what you're saying about the VT Bass having a "narrower" tone because of the rolloff of highs and lows.

To me, the VT Bass sounds the same through the vast majority of rigs, but with the 15/6 it is just much more noticeable that the lows are rolled off because the fEarful has such great low end extension.

Where I used to like dialing in a B-15 type tone with the Tech 21, now I find I like using the Puma 1000 to get in the ballpark and then add just a bit of hair with the Creation Audio Holy Fire for a warm, round, old school tone. It gives me the vintage vibe but with MUCH better low end.
Click to expand...

Tayste has repeatedly told me that the SFT does a much better job than the VT bass with respect to the low end side for the quasi-Ampeg tones. I haven't been so married to my Aguilar's 170 lb. that I need to bring it to every gig. Having an LDS 115 or 212 is a much more attractive option for me assuming I can at least dial in some thump. :)
 
#795
Check out my band's demo recordings.

Link Removed

In particular:
Enjoy The Silence
Kryptonite
A Girl Like You

They were all recorded with two of my Rickenbackers ('73 4001 & '08 4003 with vintage pickups) through a VT Bass into an Aphex Punch Factory into the ADAT recorder. I hear no low or high end roll off. :D
 
#797
Jeff Scott said:
Check out my band's demo recordings.

Link Removed

In particular:
Enjoy The Silence
Kryptonite
A Girl Like You

They were all recorded with two of my Rickenbackers ('73 4001 & '08 4003 with vintage pickups) through a VT Bass into an Aphex Punch Factory into the ADAT recorder. I hear no low or high end roll off. :D
Click to expand...

silky smoove said:
Scope plots would disagree. My experience with the VT (I still own and use one regularily) would also disagree. I'm on my phone right now, so I can't listen to your clips, but I will later.
Click to expand...

Jeff, definitely a nice tone and it sits extremely well in the mix. That said, I hear in your songs what I hear through my amp when I use the VT Bass - a significant rolloff of lows starting around 50 Hz or so and a dramatic rolloff of highs around 4 or 5 kHz.

That's just the nature of the beast - it's a speaker sim and it does that job well, but the Ampeg's the VT is emulating have those same rolloffs.
 
#798
And I realized that I had never posted a picture of my LDS cab.

Here's my 15/6 fEarful build with my TecAmp Puma 1000 and my Valenti P5 (passive with flats). I love this setup.

P5andrig.jpg


And since my current gig is covers and original "old school" R&B and soul I use this setup when I want a more vintage sound:

DSC00617.gif


The tone is wonderful, but as I mentioned, the tremendous low end extention of the 15/6 make it obvious that the VT Bass does roll off the deepest lows.

With Markbass, Schroeder or a Berg AE410 you probably wouldn't notice nearly as much, but it is VERY apparent with my rig.
 
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